Michigan Short Track Racing Club: Need help on setup - Michigan Short Track Racing Club

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Need help on setup

#1 User is offline   King785 Icon

  • Fan in the stands
  • Icon
  • Group: New Members
  • Posts: 9
  • Joined: 13-March 13

Posted 27 March 2013 - 08:14 AM

I am new to the fwd drive class and i have a car that has the power to run up front but not the handling. I run at Greenville pickens speedway in south Carlina it is a half mile asphalt track.my car is pushin alot coming off i can't get in the gas fully till im on the straight always. I am running a 2001 ford focus zx3 that has a 2,0 zetec.....it has front and rear sway bar..i run the falken 615 k.....i can post my number if anyone can help me...tks for reading my post.
0

#2 User is offline   Mopar93 Icon

  • Maurice Randall
  • Icon
  • Group: PR Members
  • Posts: 2,857
  • Joined: --
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Charlotte, MI
  • Interests:Automobiles, computers.

Posted 27 March 2013 - 08:39 AM

View PostKing785, on 27 March 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

I am new to the fwd drive class and i have a car that has the power to run up front but not the handling. I run at Greenville pickens speedway in south Carlina it is a half mile asphalt track.my car is pushin alot coming off i can't get in the gas fully till im on the straight always. I am running a 2001 ford focus zx3 that has a 2,0 zetec.....it has front and rear sway bar..i run the falken 615 k.....i can post my number if anyone can help me...tks for reading my post.


If the front swaybar is too stiff, that will create the push you are getting. The push is coming in two ways, one is a handling push due to the front swaybar. The other cause of the push is due to the left front tire trying to come off the ground and all the power from the engine is going there and causing the tire to spin just like if that tire was on ice and the RF was on dry pavement. The stiffer the swaybar is, the more the left front tire will try to lift. Ever watch a Midget race car come off a corner? So, you are not only sliding towards the outer wall coming off the corner, but you are also not going forward.

What to do? Pull the front swaybar completely off the car and see if there is an immediate improvement. If so, you are on the right track. Now, work on getting the exact balance you need. Maybe no swaybar on the front is the way to go, or maybe just a smaller one. Or maybe a stiffer one on the rear would help.

If you have ballast in the car, try moving it to the left front to keep that tire on the ground.

The same ideas that you would apply to a rear wheel drive race car also apply to a front wheel drive car, but only through the middle of the corner. When you are decelerating or accelerating, things become opposite of what you might do with a RWD car. So, in order to make the car work coming out of the corner, you might have to sacrifice some driveability through the center of the corner. This is why you will usually see a fast FWD car lift sooner and brake harder going in so that the throttle can be applied sooner and used all the way around the corner, including through the middle. Sometimes, just a different driving style is all that is needed.

-Maurice
A good part of racing is all the friends you create.
A sad part of racing is all the enemies you create.
0

#3 User is offline   King785 Icon

  • Fan in the stands
  • Icon
  • Group: New Members
  • Posts: 9
  • Joined: 13-March 13

Posted 27 March 2013 - 10:30 AM

View PostMopar93, on 27 March 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

If the front swaybar is too stiff, that will create the push you are getting. The push is coming in two ways, one is a handling push due to the front swaybar. The other cause of the push is due to the left front tire trying to come off the ground and all the power from the engine is going there and causing the tire to spin just like if that tire was on ice and the RF was on dry pavement. The stiffer the swaybar is, the more the left front tire will try to lift. Ever watch a Midget race car come off a corner? So, you are not only sliding towards the outer wall coming off the corner, but you are also not going forward.

What to do? Pull the front swaybar completely off the car and see if there is an immediate improvement. If so, you are on the right track. Now, work on getting the exact balance you need. Maybe no swaybar on the front is the way to go, or maybe just a smaller one. Or maybe a stiffer one on the rear would help.

If you have ballast in the car, try moving it to the left front to keep that tire on the ground.

The same ideas that you would apply to a rear wheel drive race car also apply to a front wheel drive car, but only through the middle of the corner. When you are decelerating or accelerating, things become opposite of what you might do with a RWD car. So, in order to make the car work coming out of the corner, you might have to sacrifice some driveability through the center of the corner. This is why you will usually see a fast FWD car lift sooner and brake harder going in so that the throttle can be applied sooner and used all the way around the corner, including through the middle. Sometimes, just a different driving style is all that is needed.

-Maurice

0

#4 User is offline   King785 Icon

  • Fan in the stands
  • Icon
  • Group: New Members
  • Posts: 9
  • Joined: 13-March 13

Posted 27 March 2013 - 11:17 AM

I took it yesterday and practiced it with the front sway bar off... and I tried to preload the rear sway bar. if you made it real loose going and and and the center.. then I tried to unload the rear sway bar and leave the front sway bar off. that is not so loose. but it was a lot slower in but fast out. with the front sway bar hooked up I could go fast in it was just slower coming out. with that front sway bar of it wore out my front right tire pretty fast.
0

#5 User is offline   Mopar93 Icon

  • Maurice Randall
  • Icon
  • Group: PR Members
  • Posts: 2,857
  • Joined: --
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Charlotte, MI
  • Interests:Automobiles, computers.

Posted 27 March 2013 - 06:56 PM

View PostKing785, on 27 March 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

with that front sway bar of it wore out my front right tire pretty fast.


Tire pressures and camber could have something to do with that.

-Maurice
A good part of racing is all the friends you create.
A sad part of racing is all the enemies you create.
0

#6 User is offline   Comet Toes Icon

  • Full time racer
  • Icon
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 60
  • Joined: 07-February 12

Posted 27 March 2013 - 08:52 PM

View PostMopar93, on 27 March 2013 - 06:56 PM, said:

Tire pressures and camber could have something to do with that.

-Maurice

Where is the groove on the straights? Are we on a true straight or a bit rounder? Does your machine have any lead?. not lead weight. Have you tried a different,taller,left front tire, or a smaller right front? Sure would like to help you, though short of getting down there, it's gonna take answers to the above ??s to even begin to get you hookin up.
0

#7 User is offline   King785 Icon

  • Fan in the stands
  • Icon
  • Group: New Members
  • Posts: 9
  • Joined: 13-March 13

Posted 28 March 2013 - 11:28 AM

View PostMopar93, on 27 March 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

Tire pressures and camber could have something to do with that.

-Maurice

Fr has 4the degrees of camber and ruing 35a lbs...fl has about2.5 camber with 28 lbs...rr....half degree camber 26and lbs...lrhalf degree camber and 17running lb...i can run with the top cars this year just not handling good enough to win..last year they out motored me so i built it for more power this year..now dont have the handling for the power
0

#8 User is offline   King785 Icon

  • Fan in the stands
  • Icon
  • Group: New Members
  • Posts: 9
  • Joined: 13-March 13

Posted 28 March 2013 - 11:31 AM

View PostComet Toes, on 27 March 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

Where is the groove on the straights? Are we on a true straight or a bit rounder? Does your machine have any lead?. not lead weight. Have you tried a different,taller,left front tire, or a smaller right front? Sure would like to help you, though short of getting down there, it's gonna take answers to the above ??s to even begin to get you hookin up.

It is true straight aways one side of the track has sharper corners than the other..it is a NASCAR sanctions track...
0

#9 User is offline   Mopar93 Icon

  • Maurice Randall
  • Icon
  • Group: PR Members
  • Posts: 2,857
  • Joined: --
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Charlotte, MI
  • Interests:Automobiles, computers.

Posted 28 March 2013 - 12:58 PM

I don't know what your tires are, but up here on the street radials, the RF tire needs to be 46-54 lbs depending on various conditions. If we ran 35 pounds on the RF, we would not handle as well and would wear out the tire much faster.

-Maurice
A good part of racing is all the friends you create.
A sad part of racing is all the enemies you create.
0

#10 User is offline   King785 Icon

  • Fan in the stands
  • Icon
  • Group: New Members
  • Posts: 9
  • Joined: 13-March 13

Posted 28 March 2013 - 08:30 PM

View PostMopar93, on 28 March 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

I don't know what your tires are, but up here on the street radials, the RF tire needs to be 46-54 lbs depending on various conditions. If we ran 35 pounds on the RF, we would not handle as well and would wear out the tire much faster.

-Maurice

I will go up on the rf...what u think on the rest...the tires r a dot race tire with tread wear of 200.
0

#11 User is offline   Mopar93 Icon

  • Maurice Randall
  • Icon
  • Group: PR Members
  • Posts: 2,857
  • Joined: --
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Charlotte, MI
  • Interests:Automobiles, computers.

Posted 29 March 2013 - 07:20 AM

View PostKing785, on 28 March 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

I will go up on the rf...what u think on the rest...the tires r a dot race tire with tread wear of 200.


Keep in mind that your car will vary from the cars I've had experience with, but it should still be somewhat similar and I can at least help you out with some sort of a starting point and maybe steer you in the right direction.

With the cars I've been involved with, like I said, we always ran about 46-52 psi in the RF. It might be higher than 52 after a run. Usually I would aim for about 50-52 in qualifying, depending on how the track was and the temperature outside. For a heat race, I might run 48-51 at the start. For a feature, maybe 46-50 at the start. You want the tire to be fast at the end. It doesn't have to be fast at the start of a feature if it's an invert, traffic will keep you running slower while the tires are warming up.

I never changed the LF much. Usually it would be around 42-45, depending on how the temperature across the tread was. The RR is about the same psi as the LF, 42-45. I would adjust that one a little depending on how the car was handling on any given night.

For the LR, the cars I've been involved with always lift the tire in the corner or at least just barely touch the ground. So, there was never any traction assistance from this tire. I always put about 60 psi in it so it would roll freely down the straightaway. It never would get hot and never wore out. Some cars, depending on the suspension design, will have a little more force on the LR in the corner, so in that case, you would run less pressure and use the tire a little. Check the tread temperature to determine what the LR tire is doing. If it stays cool, just blow it up hard.

Check your cross weight, don't do what the RWD cars do, it should be opposite. There should be more weight on the LF/RR than there will be on the RF/LR.

The hardest part of all is the driver discipline. You'll need to drive the car differently than a RWD car. You want to be able to apply throttle sooner so the car stays smooth all the way around. For this, you have to get off the throttle sooner than you normally would, at least in the beginning until you get real good and know how to use the brakes just right. Practice lifting sooner so you don't have to use hardly any brake, but get back on the throttle soon, not a lot of throttle at first, but the idea is to start picking up speed before you get to the middle between 1-2 and 3-4. Use just the amount of throttle needed to keep the car from sliding outward. If you break the front tires loose, you are all done on that lap. As you get better and better, you'll be able to go into the corner hard, use a lot of brake and immediately get back on the throttle early and you will know how to use the throttle. As you get the car working better, you will be able to use more and more throttle in the middle of the corner so that you will be coming out fast.

Eventually, all the other drivers will accuse you of cheating. :)

-Maurice
A good part of racing is all the friends you create.
A sad part of racing is all the enemies you create.
0

#12 User is offline   King785 Icon

  • Fan in the stands
  • Icon
  • Group: New Members
  • Posts: 9
  • Joined: 13-March 13

Posted 29 March 2013 - 09:02 AM

View PostMopar93, on 29 March 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

Keep in mind that your car will vary from the cars I've had experience with, but it should still be somewhat similar and I can at least help you out with some sort of a starting point and maybe steer you in the right direction.

With the cars I've been involved with, like I said, we always ran about 46-52 psi in the RF. It might be higher than 52 after a run. Usually I would aim for about 50-52 in qualifying, depending on how the track was and the temperature outside. For a heat race, I might run 48-51 at the start. For a feature, maybe 46-50 at the start. You want the tire to be fast at the end. It doesn't have to be fast at the start of a feature if it's an invert, traffic will keep you running slower while the tires are warming up.

I never changed the LF much. Usually it would be around 42-45, depending on how the temperature across the tread was. The RR is about the same psi as the LF, 42-45. I would adjust that one a little depending on how the car was handling on any given night.

For the LR, the cars I've been involved with always lift the tire in the corner or at least just barely touch the ground. So, there was never any traction assistance from this tire. I always put about 60 psi in it so it would roll freely down the straightaway. It never would get hot and never wore out. Some cars, depending on the suspension design, will have a little more force on the LR in the corner, so in that case, you would run less pressure and use the tire a little. Check the tread temperature to determine what the LR tire is doing. If it stays cool, just blow it up hard.

Check your cross weight, don't do what the RWD cars do, it should be opposite. There should be more weight on the LF/RR than there will be on the RF/LR.

The hardest part of all is the driver discipline. You'll need to drive the car differently than a RWD car. You want to be able to apply throttle sooner so the car stays smooth all the way around. For this, you have to get off the throttle sooner than you normally would, at least in the beginning until you get real good and know how to use the brakes just right. Practice lifting sooner so you don't have to use hardly any brake, but get back on the throttle soon, not a lot of throttle at first, but the idea is to start picking up speed before you get to the middle between 1-2 and 3-4. Use just the amount of throttle needed to keep the car from sliding outward. If you break the front tires loose, you are all done on that lap. As you get better and better, you'll be able to go into the corner hard, use a lot of brake and immediately get back on the throttle early and you will know how to use the throttle. As you get the car working better, you will be able to use more and more throttle in the middle of the corner so that you will be coming out fast.

Eventually, all the other drivers will accuse you of cheating. :)

-Maurice

that is very helpful... I got a race Saturday and will try that and practice before the race. if I put that much air in the back right it seems to be really loose.can u call me later around 330.....8644364270...thanks again
0

#13 User is offline   Mopar93 Icon

  • Maurice Randall
  • Icon
  • Group: PR Members
  • Posts: 2,857
  • Joined: --
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Charlotte, MI
  • Interests:Automobiles, computers.

Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:19 AM

Quote

if I put that much air in the back right it seems to be really loose.


You gotta get rid of that loose going in feeling. However, keep in mind that in many cases, applying throttle will pull you out of the loose condition, completely different from an RWD car. Very hard to get used to, though. Your first feeling is to stay out of the throttle and slow the car down, but you need to get it under control earlier and maybe that loose going in won't happen. Or maybe in your case, you don't need as much air pressure in the RR as on the cars I've been involved in.

When you lift going in, it's like applying front brakes and no rear brakes due to the engine braking the car on the front tires. Sometimes that can make the rear come around. The front of the car is trying to stop while the rear wants to keep going and since you are turning slightly to the left at this point, around she comes. You need to get the car under control going in, if you mess up going in, the whole trip through 1 and 2 or 3 and 4 will be wasted.

-Maurice
A good part of racing is all the friends you create.
A sad part of racing is all the enemies you create.
0

#14 User is offline   King785 Icon

  • Fan in the stands
  • Icon
  • Group: New Members
  • Posts: 9
  • Joined: 13-March 13

Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:24 AM

View PostMopar93, on 29 March 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

You gotta get rid of that loose going in feeling. However, keep in mind that in many cases, applying throttle will pull you out of the loose condition, completely different from an RWD car. Very hard to get used to, though. Your first feeling is to stay out of the throttle and slow the car down, but you need to get it under control earlier and maybe that loose going in won't happen. Or maybe in your case, you don't need as much air pressure in the RR as on the cars I've been involved in.

When you lift going in, it's like applying front brakes and no rear brakes due to the engine braking the car on the front tires. Sometimes that can make the rear come around. The front of the car is trying to stop while the rear wants to keep going and since you are turning slightly to the left at this point, around she comes. You need to get the car under control going in, if you mess up going in, the whole trip through 1 and 2 or 3 and 4 will be wasted.

-Maurice

I changed my air presure and during practice i was one if the fastest cars out there ...i started the race on the pole...i went in the first turn and was alittle loose and the car behind me hit me and turn me into the iside wall coming out of two and it turn me around and sent me straight in to the outside wall head on then when the car stopped another car tboned me in the side...so it is totalled out.
0

#15 User is offline   Mopar93 Icon

  • Maurice Randall
  • Icon
  • Group: PR Members
  • Posts: 2,857
  • Joined: --
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Charlotte, MI
  • Interests:Automobiles, computers.

Posted 01 April 2013 - 09:44 AM

View PostKing785, on 01 April 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

I changed my air presure and during practice i was one if the fastest cars out there ...i started the race on the pole...i went in the first turn and was alittle loose and the car behind me hit me and turn me into the iside wall coming out of two and it turn me around and sent me straight in to the outside wall head on then when the car stopped another car tboned me in the side...so it is totalled out.


Isn't that just the way it usually goes. Bummer.

On the bright side, I'm glad to hear you were one of the fastest in practice. Don't give up, start planning your next car. That's all you can do and it will keep you excited.

-Maurice
A good part of racing is all the friends you create.
A sad part of racing is all the enemies you create.
0

#16 User is offline   Comet Toes Icon

  • Full time racer
  • Icon
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 60
  • Joined: 07-February 12

Posted 01 April 2013 - 10:15 AM

View PostMopar93, on 01 April 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

Isn't that just the way it usually goes. Bummer.

On the bright side, I'm glad to hear you were one of the fastest in practice. Don't give up, start planning your next car. That's all you can do and it will keep you excited.

-Maurice

In the future, here is what you should do when operating a newly adjusted vehicle. However fast you are, start scratch!! This method will allow you at least a short time to get a better feel for what the car likes, not what you like. If it takes a few weeks,great, if its a month, and you've not damaged your car or others racers,your on the right track. Initially, you will NOT, race! You WILL gain intel.And write it down,and make minimal changes,hang in there.!!
0

#17 User is offline   King785 Icon

  • Fan in the stands
  • Icon
  • Group: New Members
  • Posts: 9
  • Joined: 13-March 13

Posted 01 April 2013 - 11:20 AM

View PostComet Toes, on 01 April 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

In the future, here is what you should do when operating a newly adjusted vehicle. However fast you are, start scratch!! This method will allow you at least a short time to get a better feel for what the car likes, not what you like. If it takes a few weeks,great, if its a month, and you've not damaged your car or others racers,your on the right track. Initially, you will NOT, race! You WILL gain intel.And write it down,and make minimal changes,hang in there.!!

I'm going to repair this one enough to get back out there for points ...it probably wont handle good but will give me time to get another car ready..same race anther guy hit the wall going into turn one and broke his neck is he cant race ever again ...he was a really good driver too...
0

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users