Michigan Short Track Racing Club: chance to speak - Michigan Short Track Racing Club

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chance to speak lets force old rules back

#1 User is offline   mod911 Icon

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 11:10 AM

I see now that spartan is almost dead again there is a new race director. Lets get people with regular mods to speak up and be heard. Our rules have been ignored and changed and ignored in the name of advancing racing so much that there are few cars left. I am sure the 6 or 8 cars at your home track will not be happy because they get paid for top 10 finishes with 8 cars and like it that way. If they were not scared to see 40 or 50 cars every night and not making the show they would be happy to race more and spend less. I know Jeff Parish will listen and consider what we say since he was called in to fix stupid....Some arrogant A$$ will cry like a baby and get arrogant and mean when his special center link,3 piece spindles/brakes are taken away. A 69 chevelle never had 12 inch 8 bolt rotors on the street sold off the sales floor to get groceries. Lets bring back BOTH frame rails,full and complete. NO 4 speed shiftable trans unless its a road race,no lightened steering boxes,no spoiler taller than the roof. Al heads add 50 pounds,more if needed. No external pumps of any kind,more than a 1 inch spacer in wheels not acceptable. A 7200 rpm chip,no new tires qualifying,10 laps minimum to qualify. Must be open wheel if you race open wheels. Lower control arms MUST be from the chassis you are RACING. If you want a ford race one. If you want pinto parts RACE one. Must be able to get out of right side...period...seat belts last many years so just drop that stupid rule. If an owner wants us safe spend money on safer walls,more fire equipment and safety crews. Maybe a certified ambulance. Maybe a 50 gallon barrel of soapy water to fight fires when someone is trapped...

Everyone has minded our business and ignored their own that we have few cars and many stupid expenses. 50 pound weight break for e-85 of alky like it used to be.....antifreeze ok in dilute amounts since rust forms immediately in water and iron...grandfather out stupid rules and a magneto is fine if you want one.......
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#2 User is offline   fastbackss Icon

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 09:01 PM

Serious question here - you mention the 50lbs for alum heads. Would you be okay with some sort of "chart" that adds weight in order to try and get more cars out?

Examples -
adjustable shocks
LM rotors
tube clip
bump stops
etc.
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#3 User is offline   mod911 Icon

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 07:47 AM

Well most likely those with the good stuff will cry. If you want late model buy one and spend what it takes to win or even find a place to race it. The 68 chevelle frame has NOT changed since they built them. The stock clip and lowers with steering components IS our equal playing field. It is still working for dirt mods. Lots of cars,lots of competition,lots of excitement for the fans and racers. I say the STOCK center link in the STOCK location with stock idler and pitman are what makes racing affordable and fun for the masses. Some cars have rack simulators to give them an advantage over the hanging slightly flexible pitman and idler assemblies. It is cheating your competitors every night. The inner pick up points for them should be in line with a line thru the lower control arm bolts and right into the middle of the inner tie rod end. That is how they were designed and that equals us all out.

Maybe you were not around when a few broke dick super drivers moved into mods after destroying their class of racing and some promoters said al heads and roller motors were no advantage so shut up or go away,many left then. Some of us got al headed roller motors and joined them,more regular guys left....THEN,after the supers guys ruined us they left also,how many are left now. Very few. Then the tracks said al heads were an advantage and we had to add 100 pounds and 58%left side instead of 60 it has always been. Then tracks knew NOTHING about significant figures and I was booted for being 60.9% on a 60.% rule....they rule was interpreted as being 60.0000000000000 and not 60. BIG difference and they said it was the same. A 8.00 % mortgage is a smaller payment than a 8.9% payment,right. Significant on a 200k loan but not according to spartan....who is crying now? 6 cars and 12 fans in the stands most nights. Not to mention the ABC no class....a bad joke on racers and fans there....

Seems funny that something is stuck up where it hurts one days and ignored other days.I have seen not one person check the fab frame for lower pick up points or for altered stock clips. Some have admitted cheating them up years ago and think admitting it now is fine but my respect for them is gone. Tell your wife you did her sister after you married her and see how that goes.....all is forgiven since it was years ago....right??

The 6 cars who do go to the same track weekly think what ever is ok, they need to retire at a young age since they have no sense of history and why things are they way they are. According to them they are younger and know more about things they haven't experienced yet. SO I propose we get the bandelero drivers to make all the rules for everyone since they have no money or skin in the game or bad habits and all the knowledge available to mankind. Maybe new borns are the new leaders according to that theory...

Lets make it so an iron head 355 can win features buy adding weight to the fancy cars till they cannot compete and see how they feel about that....MAYBE they will say"this is stupid,I spend 50g and get passed by a355 steel motor with stock steering and full frame and that stuff". Maybe he will say I am getting me one of those winning cheaper cars with not much fancy stuff on them AND save a LOT of CASH........divorce rates of racers will go down also....lol....no more divorce cars for sale......
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#4 User is offline   Kevin 05 Icon

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 10:47 AM

Dick.. don't throw out the fact that the divorce sales will go down.. that is where I get my best deals..I have some thoughts on your post but will need more time to post later today. but to some extent I agree in theory.
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#5 User is offline   mod911 Icon

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 11:04 AM

Ricky Brooks .......help us.....
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#6 User is offline   fastbackss Icon

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 09:57 AM

Dick,

Obviously you could teach a master class in this with the history you have.

Given my relative newness to the class I will not (at this time) delve into some of the technical aspects. But I will add one “comment string.”



We have discussed with frequency on this board that there are cars sitting, because the rules have evolved so much and they are obsolete. I know yours is sitting. There are others. But I say with respect that I am not sure we truly know the gravity of how many are parked (and more precisely how many would come back out if the rules did change). We would almost need to create a “master list” of cars in the area and try to populate it.

With that preface, I have heard varying rumblings of creating a “dialed back” rules class. My concern (and I have just as much data for it as I do for the master list I said above) is that we fracture things further. There are only a handful of healthy tracks right now, and I would contend that many that are perceived healthy are using a recency bias (healthy compared to others now, not compared to how things used to be). I know some tracks outside of our area have started to add a “more restricted” rules class to bring closer to how it used to be.

But that is why I asked my comment in the other thread about balancing it via weight*. I feel like that is the best way to do things if we truly want to increase car counts, and do it immediately. Another option would be to create a rule set A and a rule set B. You could have the cars run together but score them separately. I know there would be lots of grumbling, but frankly…there always is.

-Mike


*I spent 2017 road racing, in a division that was going through a very similar transition as the modifieds are. The “new” formula was making the old formula obsolete. So cars are parked (theoretically) in spades, and the turnout for races was apathetic. One of the few groups to be successful with the class was a regional group that decided to add 50 lbs. of ballast to the “new” formula cars. It takes away the perceived advantage and car count has been increasingly dramatically.
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#7 User is offline   Kevin 05 Icon

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Posted 02 August 2018 - 11:34 AM

OK been thinking a while before writing this out.. I can say that I truly have not put much time (or at least as much as I should) into rebuilding the car that set in my shop.. the original plan was to have it ready by mid season for Berlin,,but it is now the end of the season and it still is not ready. Part of it is because of all the what if rule changes that people keep throwing out, and the indecision of my own as to which way to go,,so I can truly say that I am part of the low car count problem,,but I don't think I can be the only problem. There seemed to be a lot more cars at the track last year when the weight rule got bumped up,,yes I know there were some that boycotted the year due to it,, but I know the tour races I worked last year had a lot more (older chassis) running..so is going back to a lighter weight rule keeping the older heavier cars away ?? I now that the OLM have gone the way of few and far between,,and I know that the older (True IMCA) cars have as well,, I know I'm going to get it now,but is it time to bring back something like the Thunder Mods (Dick you remember those days) and make it so that they are a true step up from the original IMCA car, and let those that want LW,Fab clip,big motor,purchased parts VS made,big slicks have a place and let the Mod class return closer to it roots and become a stepping stone to this new class?? I know that people will say that this will do nothing but divide things up and will just have two low car count classes,, but tracks like Berlin,AC,Dixie,Owosso and other are only running 8-10 a week as it is.. Let these guys step up a little and let those in the barn come back out to a former rules package that will allow someone that wants to run the way it was and dust off what is in the barn,have fun,and drink a few after come back out to the track?? More cars with the right promoters = more people. More people = more people having fun at the track.
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#8 User is offline   mod911 Icon

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Posted 03 August 2018 - 08:05 AM

Mother nature knows no one want to go backwards even if their survival is at stake. It is easier to let them die and make a new one to begin with. It was listening to these types that drove everyone away. A good start would be the spindle,steering components and brake rules. Take away new tire qualifying and even qualifying at all would be a good step.

I guess 8 car shows are fine with everyone but the FANS....4 hour shows with 40 cars total for 6 classes is fine I guess....I am riding my Harley tonight instead of going racing. They didn't support me so I won't even buy a ticket as a FAN......cause the show SUCKS.....me and mine will pass on the whole deal. But I am building a new motor,rather Larry Wallace is building it for me.
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#9 User is offline   ratracer49 Icon

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Posted 03 August 2018 - 02:51 PM

I don't really have a dog in the fight when it comes to the asphalt side. However I'll throw some thoughts out there to maybe help spur discussion.

First off consistency, consistency, consistency. Just in case you didn't catch that, keep things consistent. Now there are classes that are too far gone from years of inconsistency that keeping the them same now is too late and basically you're starting over. However constant changes to the rules; to allow more cars in, to improve competition, or (my favorite) to save racers money cost everyone more and drives racers out. This has the biggest effect on the hobby racer that is a big part of the field. There are die hard racers that are going to be there no matter the rules and they will encourage the changes. They would still be racing (and whining) under the old rules along with the hobby guys and they are what you have left now racing (and still whining) under the new rules but without the hobby guys. I've always said I don't care what the rules are as long as they stay the same and are enforced. I may not like some of them, but I can adapt and overcome if I know the rules.

From my observation the classes in the state that have the best car counts are the ones that are running under a national sanction. Why is that? My opinion is that it's because it's sanctioned but because it takes the rules out of the tracks hands and they can't change them yearly or multiple times a year in some cases. Also if you run that class you know the rules are the same at any track you go to. Then there are a few that seam to be doing well by copying the rules of a national sanction and just not requiring the licencing or licenced parts (drawing on the good number of cars that already fit these rules).

This lack of consistency is the reason as a hobby racer my street stock is sitting in the shop. I built this car myself back when there were 4 or 5 tracks that all got together decided to run the same rules. It cost me $3000 and a lot of time fabricating my own parts to complete the roller. I dropped a $1200 motor in it went out and had a blast. The car was competitive and I even won a few races.

Then people had a better idea and started tweaking the rules to get a couple more cars, save the racers money, or whatever excuses. The rules started changing or just not being enforced and eventually tracks went their own way again. So frustrated with all this money I was saving having to change things constantly and watching anything goes policies take over enforcement the car sat in the shop a couple years.

After this time I just couldn't take not getting out there any longer and it appeared that the rules might be settling in again. So I spent a few hundred dollars and a fair amount of time to update the car to the new rules. While there were a few things sliding under the radar (there always are) they stayed fairly consistent for awhile and had moderate enforcement. Once again I was having fun and grinning from ear to ear under my helmet as I passed the same guys who had previously been barging about their new power plant or chassis that cost 3 to 4 times my whole car by itself. One of those years I only had 4 finishes outside the top 3 and 3 of those were a top 5. Then the cycle started again and guess where the car sits.

That is what brings me to where I am now, in an IMCA (I know its a curse word to some) modified. Luckily I had a 12 year old no name chassis sitting around otherwise I'd just be watching again. However I know the rules are going to be consistent. I also know I don't have the equipment to expect to win any races in this division and don't have a clue what I'm doing with the car (yet). However I'm not wasting money chasing rules and what improvements I do make are not going to be thrown out the window next year or next week. And while I started out the year looking like an idiot that probably couldn't even spell race car let alone drive one, I have been learning and making improvements. It's far later in the year then I hoped, but the car is getting better and I don't feel like I've spent the last 10 minutes wrestling a six armed orangutan coming off the track. Hopefully things keep improving and as I work my way up in the ranks of cars I'm passing that grin starts getting bigger again.

Sorry I rambled a bit more than I intended.
You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else.

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There are things that I believe that I will never say, but I shall never say the things that I do not believe.
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