Michigan Short Track Racing Club: So how do you do - Michigan Short Track Racing Club

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So how do you do

#1 User is offline   Kevin 05 Icon

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 07:12 AM

Was looking at another post and it looks like weekly mod counts are down (or low 12-16 cars)

What needs to be corrected so that you get more cars at the weekly events?

I would think now is the time to start talking about it so that if promoters decide to listen there can be things or rule changes put in place early enough so that they are not huge issues for next season.

Aren't most tracks running the Top Speed type rules ??
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#2 User is offline   RowZ Icon

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 08:29 AM

Don't allow fab clips....ever.
Cheap shocks.
And the tough one, reduce the tire bill.
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#3 User is offline   vignoles419 Icon

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 10:22 AM

View PostKevin 05, on 24 June 2015 - 07:12 AM, said:

Was looking at another post and it looks like weekly mod counts are down (or low 12-16 cars)

What needs to be corrected so that you get more cars at the weekly events?

I would think now is the time to start talking about it so that if promoters decide to listen there can be things or rule changes put in place early enough so that they are not huge issues for next season.

Aren't most tracks running the Top Speed type rules ??

Minimum #500 spring rule - welded bearing shock - 1tire per night rule - 360 stock block rule with weight rule for steel heads - No 2 piece hubs
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#4 User is offline   MaddMike Icon

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 10:24 AM

They already allow fab clips, Brian. In fact, they even allow them after they have been illegally manipulated, or built with illegal left side wheelbase.

The more I learn about what can and IS being done with these re-man clips, the more I realize that we have a serious problem. How many "re-man" Chevelle clips are out there running the Ford lower arms that DO NOT FIT that chassis?

Somebody up TOP needs to grow some balls and enforce some rules. When there are a whole bunch of BOLD PRINT, UNDERLINED rules in RED, and not even those rules are enforced, then THAT is your problem...

Eventually the legal cars will quit showing up.

Every race we have run this year we have competed against blatant rule violations and it gets pretty old.

Mike
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#5 User is offline   MaddMike Icon

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 10:29 AM

View Postvignoles419, on 24 June 2015 - 11:22 AM, said:

Minimum #500 spring rule - welded bearing shock - 1tire per night rule - 360 stock block rule with weight rule for steel heads - No 2 piece hubs


What is any of that going to do except cause wrecks when cheap chinese castings FAIL? I've broken 5 of them prior to switching to steel hubs with OEM SPEC rotors. (I don't run LATEMODEL ROTORS on my steel safety hubs, because they are illegal.)
The other solutions you mention won't do anything at all...NASCAR found the solution though...GET RID OF THE RIDE HEIGHT RULE...All that rule does is cause all this other crap to be used in order to circumvent the rule.

YOu can run on bumps with a tiedown setup using 500lb springs. You can run on bumps with welded bearing shocks...I can cut and weld all day long.

GET RID OF THE RIDE HEIGHT RULE.

Mike
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#6 User is offline   astromapaupus Icon

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 01:38 PM

Weekly expenses are too high compared to payout. I'm not sure what the mod guys think of the tire, but at Auto City there is a pretty big drop off from sticker AR970 tires to one night old tires. If you figure 2 tires a night, $100 of hauler and race gas, $25 pit pass, $10 slab fee, then you are up to almost $400 just to unload for a 30 lap feature. You gotta run 2nd or 3rd to cover that and that doesn't count normal car expenses that add to that. If you know there is a 50 lapper that pays $400 to start it just makes more sense to save your car for the top speed show. The same thing seems to be happening with the PLM car count. Guys are coming out for the 75 lappers at Owosso and AC, but the normal weekly races have less cars. Same cost to race, but more payout for the bigger shows.
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#7 User is offline   Kevin 05 Icon

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 02:07 PM

Per a different post that was the thought I had too..Looks like 15-18 cars for weekly shows but more like mid 20's ( I know Berlin had 28) for Top Speed shows.Is it long before mods become the new ASA or CRA series?
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#8 User is offline   vignoles419 Icon

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 04:47 PM

View PostMaddMike, on 24 June 2015 - 10:29 AM, said:

What is any of that going to do except cause wrecks when cheap chinese castings FAIL? I've broken 5 of them prior to switching to steel hubs with OEM SPEC rotors. (I don't run LATEMODEL ROTORS on my steel safety hubs, because they are illegal.)
The other solutions you mention won't do anything at all...NASCAR found the solution though...GET RID OF THE RIDE HEIGHT RULE...All that rule does is cause all this other crap to be used in order to circumvent the rule.

YOu can run on bumps with a tiedown setup using 500lb springs. You can run on bumps with welded bearing shocks...I can cut and weld all day long.

GET RID OF THE RIDE HEIGHT RULE.

Mike

How is getting rid o f ride height rule going to bring out more cars? You can still run high dollar shocks , 4 new skins a night ,$$$$$ motor . That's why I have 2 cars sitting in the shop- COST!!!!!!
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#9 User is offline   governor Icon

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 06:46 PM

I welcome ANYONE to come and tech my car with its stock impala spindle , with impala lower on one side and crown vic lower on the other, only one adjustable shock and way heavy.
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#10 User is offline   crazy Icon

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 06:54 PM

View PostKevin 05, on 25 June 2015 - 06:07 AM, said:

Per a different post that was the thought I had too..Looks like 15-18 cars for weekly shows but more like mid 20's ( I know Berlin had 28) for Top Speed shows.Is it long before mods become the new ASA or CRA series?


It has already happen in the west, two tracks for the 2015 season cut their oem frame modified division and their late model weekly/semi-weekly divisions. They have been replaced with touring series.
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#11 User is offline   MaddMike Icon

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 07:18 PM

View Postvignoles419, on 24 June 2015 - 05:47 PM, said:

How is getting rid o f ride height rule going to bring out more cars? You can still run high dollar shocks , 4 new skins a night ,$$$$$ motor . That's why I have 2 cars sitting in the shop- COST!!!!!!


High dollar shocks don't do anything for us...especially if they don't have to tie the car down to circumvent the ride height rule.

If we get rid of the ride height rule, all the bump stop crap goes away and then we just select a spring. Once you select a spring, then all you need the shock to do is control that spring. Right now, shocks are doing a lot more than they were ever intended to do....and that is because we have to meet a 4" ride height rule. (while the car is parked but not while it's going around the track)


Along with the ride height rule going away, add in that if you cannot drive off the track to get a flat changed, then there will not be any waiting for a tire change. Can't be waiting all night for people if they get stuck on the pavement because the car is so low.

Mike
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#12 User is offline   vignoles419 Icon

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 08:09 PM

View PostMaddMike, on 24 June 2015 - 07:18 PM, said:

High dollar shocks don't do anything for us...especially if they don't have to tie the car down to circumvent the ride height rule.

If we get rid of the ride height rule, all the bump stop crap goes away and then we just select a spring. Once you select a spring, then all you need the shock to do is control that spring. Right now, shocks are doing a lot more than they were ever intended to do....and that is because we have to meet a 4" ride height rule. (while the car is parked but not while it's going around the track)


Along with the ride height rule going away, add in that if you cannot drive off the track to get a flat changed, then there will not be any waiting for a tire change. Can't be waiting all night for people if they get stuck on the pavement because the car is so low.

Mike
high dollar shocks will still make a big difference your just going to change them to help out with a 2 inch ride height with very little movement but now I'm going to have to cut my cross member or raise a new clip which is going to cost me $ along with a new ultra shallow oil pan plus rework all of my chassis mounts and pivot points . hOW IS THAT SAVING ANYONE MONEY! Do you really think more people will drag their cars out to play just because of no frame height rule?
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#13 User is offline   Tony P Icon

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 06:47 AM

So, do away with the ride height rule and outlaw raised clips. Let people try to figure out how to balance the low ride height with bouncing their cross member off the track. To me, raising a stock clip is much further from the original intent of our class, than is allowing a fabricated stock spec clip.

It won't be long before the local tracks do away with Mods and Supers, and just run their ABC format class allowing Mods to run with them (they already allow supers). Then we'll all have to race our mods against supers in what is already the ABC debacle, or follow a touring series specific to Mods, but have to have a raised clip, bumps etc. I'm fine either way, I'll run last years tires on my Mod against the B class cars and have just as much fun as I am now.
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#14 User is offline   Kevin 05 Icon

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 06:55 AM

I guess I have a question now within the original question.. Some say that the dirt tracks are really hauling in the cars theses days..So what really is the difference.. Chassis are close ( not like when I started and you had a combo car and might do Spartan and I-96 or ??) Dirt guys run huge motors (or at least UMP guys) When I was at PCR dirt guys spend 3 times the money on shocks that asphalt guys do.You still have to fuel the hauler and pay pit passes..so does it just come down to I can run my RR a little longer ?? But if I'm running up front and running hard I'm probably still using up a RR every other week.. So why are they getting the cars or at least that is the buzz?
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#15 User is offline   Tony P Icon

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 07:13 AM

It's probably because just driving a dirt car is more fun. So, even if you're not extremely competitive right out of the gate, you're still having fun wheeling the car around. Whereas on asphalt, if your car isn't perfect, there aren't as many things a driver can do from within the car to help that our.

I also believe Tri-City opened up as a dirt track at the perfect time and location. They've provided an outlet for the disgruntled Dixie and Auto City regulars, or observers who didn't dare enter the water, to get back to what racing was supposed to be about from the start, having fun.
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#16 User is offline   Kevin 05 Icon

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 07:58 AM

Tony I agree 100% with your "Dirt is a lot more fun" Done both have always done better on the dirt and ust never really got comfortable on the tar. Loved Winchester,Salem,IRP even Tri City and Mount Lawn.. But just more at home on the big dirt.. There is nothing like the feel of pitching something in sideways at Eldora,the Real Owosso, Terra Haute or places like that.Even the mile at Springfield was a trip.. But it still doesn't really make since that track surface would help car counts.. If that is the case maybe some of those barned Tar mods should convert of to dirt and go back to having fun and leave the TAR to tour.
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#17 User is offline   MaddMike Icon

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 09:31 AM

View Postvignoles419, on 24 June 2015 - 09:09 PM, said:

high dollar shocks will still make a big difference your just going to change them to help out with a 2 inch ride height with very little movement but now I'm going to have to cut my cross member or raise a new clip which is going to cost me $ along with a new ultra shallow oil pan plus rework all of my chassis mounts and pivot points . hOW IS THAT SAVING ANYONE MONEY! Do you really think more people will drag their cars out to play just because of no frame height rule?


Can you give the facts to substantiate how "high dollar" shocks could outperform a used set of Bilstein SZ or SLS shocks which already have anything you'd ever need to control a simple spring, especially if tiedown is removed from the equation?

Why would anyone build a raised clip car if there is no ride height rule? All that would do is bring the static ride height up and cause you to have to tie it down with shocks again. Counteractive to each other. If there's no ride height rule you're gonna set the car as low as possible...period.

Why would you spend money on an "ultra shallow" oil pan when we have a crank height rule? why would you alter your crossmember when that would be illegal also?

Mike
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#18 User is offline   vignoles419 Icon

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 10:09 AM

View PostMaddMike, on 25 June 2015 - 09:31 AM, said:

Can you give the facts to substantiate how "high dollar" shocks could outperform a used set of Bilstein SZ or SLS shocks which already have anything you'd ever need to control a simple spring, especially if tiedown is removed from the equation?

Why would anyone build a raised clip car if there is no ride height rule? All that would do is bring the static ride height up and cause you to have to tie it down with shocks again. Counteractive to each other. If there's no ride height rule you're gonna set the car as low as possible...period.

Why would you spend money on an "ultra shallow" oil pan when we have a crank height rule? why would you alter your crossmember when that would be illegal also?

Mike

I guess I'm just a dumbass because don't get your point on how that will bring more cars back to the track.so until I see change that I agree with my 2 cars can just sit in the shop and gather dust
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#19 User is offline   governor Icon

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 12:00 PM

View Postvignoles419, on 25 June 2015 - 11:09 AM, said:

I guess I'm just a dumbass because don't get your point on how that will bring more cars back to the track.so until I see change that I agree with my 2 cars can just sit in the shop and gather dust


Dave,

Not sure you will see the type of rule changes you want unless you promote a track or series and make the rules you want.
We are already 8-10 years past when the changes started and far more (not all) have already started the progression.

Even Steve Ellis was tweaking spindles arms when they were supposed to remain OE, not sure when Howe started raising clips
but the 2008 Howe in my shop has a raised front clip compared to the 2008 Lefthander we have.

I was resistant to many changes but decided to adapt and give in to the changes. I now I have 9 shocks now, smooth track
and rough track sets, which is way less than I used to have.

Since I went on Bump Stops 5 years ago I have not changed a front spring and only change the RR when going from smooth to ruff
track, have not carried a spring or multiple shocks the last 4 years.

I also have way more gear selections than I ever had with the 9", my Bert and Brinn transmissions are all but bullet proof
compared to the power glides and multi disc clutch and cast iron 40+ year old 3 speeds we ran.

Plus I rarely see rods and pistons on the track like the IMCA claimer days, so in my opinion not all changes have been bad.

Gov
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#20 User is offline   MaddMike Icon

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 12:20 PM

View Postvignoles419, on 25 June 2015 - 11:09 AM, said:

I guess I'm just a dumbass because don't get your point on how that will bring more cars back to the track.so until I see change that I agree with my 2 cars can just sit in the shop and gather dust


I didn't say you are a dumbass at all. I think those rule changes would change the perception of what it takes to run a modified. I think before we change any rules, the existing ones need to be enforced or just plain removed.

Mike
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