Michigan Short Track Racing Club: It's about time - Michigan Short Track Racing Club

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It's about time

#41 User is offline   Mopar93 Icon

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 04:49 PM

View PostMaddMike, on 06 November 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

Does anyone have a 75 caprice front clip for me? Legit question- I need spares and the outlook seems pretty poor.


Is a 79 Olds Custom Cruiser about the same? I have one. I also have several early to mid 80's big GM cars. They are all going to the junk yard soon. I'd hate to see them crushed if they could be used for racing somehow, maybe the destruction shows if nothing else.

I have the following: 79 Custom Cruiser, 81 Delta 88, 2 85 Delta 88's, 87 Delta 88, 85 LeSabre, 88 LeSabre.

-Maurice
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#42 User is offline   Kevin 05 Icon

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 08:46 PM

Maurice. Can you PM me a package price on the 5 other than the two Buicks?? I'll let Mike have those so he can fix his stock front clip can. Thanks
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#43 User is offline   MaddMike Icon

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Posted 07 November 2014 - 05:59 AM

View PostMopar93, on 06 November 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

Is a 79 Olds Custom Cruiser about the same?
-Maurice


Not the same after 77 unfortunately. It's 73-77 B-body.

Nothing wrong with my car, but it was born before the cash for clunkers program. I could never clip it if there is no clip.

Mike
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#44 User is offline   KBM17g Icon

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Posted 08 November 2014 - 06:21 AM

You can't have a logical discussion when you have 1 or 2 guys set in their ways who's mindset is "We just don't want them".

To answer someone's question about stock front clip sportsman vs tubed clip sportsman chassis, YES, stock clipped cars could and do compete and win vs tubed clipped cars.

Example: Late models in the south still were stock clip cars up until not very long ago.

Several Prostock cars at Berlin were Camaro front clips vs the Howe tubed clips....both won races.

It's not the hunks of steel, it's what you do with them that make em fast.

Just my opinion. We're heading into 2015. I'm calling Lucas myself on Monday..... heard a rumor they'd like to expand into the midwest. Maybe a competing modified series might shake some asses up.
Rob Gray
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#45 User is offline   Kevin 05 Icon

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Posted 08 November 2014 - 08:54 AM

Rob save your $$$$$ Lucas have already said they would not come any farther East than the River. They have done a very good job of building the Top Speed series with what they had to start with.. I was just asking a question from info I had and to me a front clip would be the least of my rule change worries. As it would still SAVE racers both current and guys that want them an easy hand full of cash they could spend.. And like someone else asked and has yet to get an answer is to WHAT are the Cons?? Other than my ball my rules? Instead of bothering Lucas maybe someone should start a series that would be fab clips and other changes and be a stepping stone between current TopSpeed carsand Outlaw/CRA series type cars.. I have always thought ICAR/Topspeed was a great stepping stone to guys that thought they wanted to go to a traveling series.. In my opinion it isnt the car/team/racing that kills them but is the not knowing how to travel.. It may sound strange but that has killed more traveling guys than most anything else.. Following a tour takes $$$$$$.
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#46 User is offline   mod911 Icon

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Posted 08 November 2014 - 09:32 AM

the chassis builders cannot follow a simple rule like stock,full and complete frame to 36 inches from rear axle. How can they build something and follow detailed plans and get the pick up points where the stock chassis guys have to use? They would modify the plans so their guys can win even if it means cheating......LIKE they do NOW. Why trust anyone?

BESIDES, there are MORE than 2 people who said NO. I think EVERYONE who posted said NO. NO NO NO. Ask P-C and Howe if they can follow rules.

Who wants a newer frame,after 72 they belong on a boat to china anyway. They do no bend easily either and can be pulled out. Ask L Wallace,his was bent bad but he had a frame guy pull it out.And won many many races since.

Add 200 pounds and I am fine with it.
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#47 User is offline   governor Icon

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Posted 08 November 2014 - 09:56 AM

Both of the Impala clip cars I run have had the frame horns pulled and I'll be darned if they still are able to win even with
my sorry old ass running them.

Gov
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#48 User is offline   Drake Racing Icon

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Posted 08 November 2014 - 02:01 PM

I say go for it, allow it with the following penalty.

Conventional spring mounts, no coil overs.
Stock steering linkages, no rack and pinion
Stock stamped lowers
No slotted, serrated, or slugged, or multi position lower mounting holes
50 pound penalty. Maybe even say where the weight has to be located .

But anyone trying to find an oem clip will be hard pressed to find a decent clip for under 500 bucks when it's all said and done. Tube clips bend easier than stock but do repair much easier.

Just food for thought.
Kyle Drake
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#49 User is offline   Kevin 05 Icon

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 10:55 AM

Kyle that is what we use.. The Howe clip with stock steering box location,big springs.camaro lower.pinto spindles and our Outlaw Uppers.. Even run the stock type sway bar not some big Money splined one.So most all the parts a guy has now would bolt right in.
Dan your cars run well no matter what,,but that is due more to the time you spend in the shop and the knowledge of how these cars work, you have spent most of your time in racing behind the wheel of a mod so it would not surprise me if you could still put one of the OLD original IMCA cars in some fields today.. That is why you are the Gov. Good luck to you and all the other Mod guys in 2015.
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#50 User is offline   mod911 Icon

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 01:11 PM

My car is "old" imca still. Completely legal too. I was not aware of the redesign update on my 1970 buick 225 and I did not inform it either. My car has complete frame to 36 inches like the rules say. I have stock spindles,rotors,hubs lower arms along with center link and idler/box locations. GM did a damn good job of engineering them to start with. We are not the reason it works so well. I have the ability to measure it quite accurately and do.The trick is knowing what you need,most people have their losing or so so "favorite" settings and they are harder to tune than the car.
I have had some of those professional chassis on my rack and was amazed at how badly the steering and suspension was done and how far it moved around as the car is cycled up and down. Some go from 3/16 toe static to 13/16 in OR out on average. I was amazed these cars have won races! I have screen shots somewhere they were so bad I saved a copy. ALL 68-72 chevelle or newer metric impala too. I find about 10 hours and 500 bucks in parts will make them ok...Just doing the caster camber thing is worthless if you want to win... ALL ya can do is jack em down and set em. Good luck

As far as I can see a stock 70 frame is the best place to start anyway. Its rusted 20 pounds rusted away where you don;t need it anyway. You can tell at a glance if the mount points have been moved usually. ALL the pick up points were welded on a jig by guys who did millions of them. It saves in lead too since it is thicker steel.

After 35 years and a 1000 races I know all the quirks of how race cars act and now am finding causes and cures. Put vector arrows in ur mind and watch that 6 car dash video and imagine why those lines move around.Do the same for each wheel also,imagine the wheel axis's wobbling around and then add chassis vector wobbling around then add wheel and tires forces wobbling around with the tire slip angles and inputs applied..amazing info there.. If I were a competitor in that race I would be studying it carefully,I can see the problems with their cars ,,and mine. I wish I had 4 shock cams and the race video and to sync together. Info city for sure.

I have a video showing Jason gettin beat at the apex by a faster REACTING chassis when they both throttled up at the same time,I had the cure in the box but he said no changes. Two seconds instead of wins,lucky for Laci anyway he had a career high fairy tale ending. Same for the 24 car,a lucky break and a quicker acting rear end and a win. Him and Jason were in a time zone of their own. One car newest fancy and the other old imca junk. Look at solid rear axle set ups on newer SUV's ...I see the future there. Some time you study away just to learn to see what is right in front of you,the engineers did it again. You just had to understand the thinking behind it. Same links same tube same spring ,,,,new theory and angles.
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#51 User is offline   Kevin 05 Icon

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 08:23 PM

WOW.. lots of info there DICK.. May take a minute to put all the vectors in the right places.. Short version is you are very correct in that the front end MUST work together.. The guys that do the front end set up at the shop will spend well over and hour on getting the front end geometry right on both new cars going out the door of any front clip replacement we do.I also have some pictures of the fab front clip that the California boys are using from Howe that I will try and upload.. they are selling for $800,, a lot cheaper than playing the junk yard game,blast/dip cut,weld,grind,fab.. But I know I'm barking up a tree.. But they use big springs,stock box,stamped lower and fab uppers, they also have the side frame rails to the 36" spec.
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#52 User is offline   OLDGOLD Icon

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Posted 10 November 2014 - 09:39 AM

if anyone thinks the old frames are gone better look in the salvage yards in nashville tennessee lots of late 60s up cars.
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#53 User is offline   MaddMike Icon

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Posted 10 November 2014 - 01:13 PM

View PostOLDGOLD, on 10 November 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

if anyone thinks the old frames are gone better look in the salvage yards in nashville tennessee lots of late 60s up cars.


How much to get one here, ready to install?

Mike
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#54 User is offline   Kevin 05 Icon

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Posted 10 November 2014 - 06:37 PM

I have a source on the West Coast that can get me all the Impala clips I need at $700 ready to weld.. Only problem is to make the shipping worth while I need to do 7-8 at a time.. Same issue with going to Nashville.I could go all the way there and just eat the fuel cost.. I guess if I was just doing my own car I could go and make a vacation out of it and stop by Lynchburg and pick up supplies.
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#55 User is offline   that_one_guy Icon

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 10:23 AM

View PostDrake Racing, on 08 November 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

I say go for it, allow it with the following penalty.

Conventional spring mounts, no coil overs.
Stock steering linkages, no rack and pinion
Stock stamped lowers
No slotted, serrated, or slugged, or multi position lower mounting holes
50 pound penalty. Maybe even say where the weight has to be located .

But anyone trying to find an oem clip will be hard pressed to find a decent clip for under 500 bucks when it's all said and done. Tube clips bend easier than stock but do repair much easier.

Just food for thought.


The howe impala stock replacement is just what you described. Its all .125 wall, 60lbs lighter than a stock impala clip, but has weld bungs on both upper frame rails to add 30lbs each side to make equal weight, without being lower than stock. They are also serial numbered for tracability. All dimensions are equal to a stock untouched frame, and outer frame rail kickouts are same width as stock clip to prevent any left side rail/footbox manipulation.
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#56 User is offline   OLDGOLD Icon

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Posted 17 November 2014 - 10:15 PM

View PostMaddMike, on 11 November 2014 - 04:13 AM, said:

How much to get one here, ready to install?

Mike
just came from tennessee and found centinennial salvage $244 plus tax and you take off bare frame they had 70 chevys buicks ,caddys,and 84and up to 87 big impalas same price 244 and customer removes. the bolts wont be rusted even brakes lines come off with ease. if i could get a order to go get them and could get maybe 8 i could do it for cost of fuel and small labor to remove frames and cut in half.would come with no add ons just bare frames i would think 400 would be a fair price. buying removing and hauling back.
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#57 User is offline   mod911 Icon

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 09:49 AM

Once again problem solved.
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#58 User is offline   MaddMike Icon

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 02:21 PM

View PostOLDGOLD, on 17 November 2014 - 11:15 PM, said:

just came from tennessee and found centinennial salvage $244 plus tax and you take off bare frame they had 70 chevys buicks ,caddys,and 84and up to 87 big impalas same price 244 and customer removes. the bolts wont be rusted even brakes lines come off with ease. if i could get a order to go get them and could get maybe 8 i could do it for cost of fuel and small labor to remove frames and cut in half.would come with no add ons just bare frames i would think 400 would be a fair price. buying removing and hauling back.


Let me know when you're ready. I'd take a few as long as they are the 73-77 big body (75 caprice)

Mike
I do it because I can. I can because I want to. I want to because you said I couldn't.

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#59 User is offline   MaddMike Icon

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 02:22 PM

View Postmod911, on 18 November 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

Once again problem solved.


That's not what I consider a solution, really. It's a huge hassle that would get us by for a while, but it's really just a "stash"...and those always run out. If Rick gets them here, I'll still have a crapload of my time spent on prepping them. If my time is worth $20/hr, then that's another $200-$400 per clip plus welding wire, gas, and anything I have to outsource (sandblasting).

Or, I could build an entire front clip out of fresh steel in a day and have it painted by bed-time with no outsourcing of anything.

We need a long term solution to the problem, not just one that gets us through the day, or the season.

Mike
I do it because I can. I can because I want to. I want to because you said I couldn't.

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#60 User is offline   Kevin 05 Icon

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 08:27 PM

Mike.. that is what I was trying to bring to the front.. True you can always find a stash.. but sometime down the road (granted some of us will be dead by then) but those stashes are going to run out.. The clip that the west coast guys have is from Howe.. Is $800 ready to go and it has nuts welded in that the guys have to bolt on #30 on each side to make it equal to a stock Impala.. they are all numbered as to try and make it so guys can't tweak them (no Dick I'm not that stupid (oh wait yes I was) I'm sure there will be many that try and get them just the way they want it.. But if Circle Track or Speedway is publishing articles on just HOW to do it,, then I guess I can't help it if guys do it..Just find a tech guy (and promotor) with balls.
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