[champ_49]

Gunner, on 01 November 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

My feeling is exactly the opposite. I think the racers need to band together to dictate a tire spec and aviod what in essence is a tire war at a slow pace. If the racers band together themselve rather than being fractioned by others, they present a desireable entitty to both the seller and the buyer. That puts the power and influece into one concentrated hand that can act with influence.

It's been my experience trying to get all racers together is about as easy as getting all the tracks together. Everyone has there idea and they have a good reason for it. But bottom line is finding the right combination that saves money for all. That has been an ongoing struggle since racing and rules started, and I don't see it changing anytime soon.


Dave

[Gunner]

champ_49, on 02 November 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

It's been my experience trying to get all racers together is about as easy as getting all the tracks together. Everyone has there idea and they have a good reason for it. But bottom line is finding the right combination that saves money for all. That has been an ongoing struggle since racing and rules started, and I don't see it changing anytime soon.


Dave

and I don't see it changing anytime soon. That is exactly why it won't. It is time for a new perspective. The present mindset continues the slow suicide of OSLMs.

[russrace]

Gunner, on 02 November 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

and I don't see it changing anytime soon. That is exactly why it won't. It is time for a new perspective. The present mindset continues the slow suicide of OSLMs.

I think it's simple reality that promoters can no longer support weekly LM racing with $400-$500 start purses yet we have many still building $65-$75K OLSM cars. When you have that investment you want a place to run it. If we are looking at $200 to start formats and $700-$1000 to win shows then we are left or will be left with cars that meet that pay structure. We are trying to keep something alive that financially...admit it, the math doesn't work for the guy who wants to race weekly in a OSLM class. If you want to build the high dollar car then you are looking at $5000-$7000 to win special events for the most part. Remember, a few short years ago we have $20,000-$32,000 to win Outlaw shows on a regular basis. Those days are history with most tracks fighting to put 1000 butts in the stands.

[Doug]

russrace, on 03 November 2012 - 05:17 AM, said:

I think it's simple reality that promoters can no longer support weekly LM racing with $400-$500 start purses yet we have many still building $65-$75K OLSM cars. When you have that investment you want a place to run it. If we are looking at $200 to start formats and $700-$1000 to win shows then we are left or will be left with cars that meet that pay structure. We are trying to keep something alive that financially...admit it, the math doesn't work for the guy who wants to race weekly in a OSLM class. If you want to build the high dollar car then you are looking at $5000-$7000 to win special events for the most part. Remember, a few short years ago we have $20,000-$32,000 to win Outlaw shows on a regular basis. Those days are history with most tracks fighting to 1000 butts in the stands.

Scott, There is not a class out there that fit the $200 to start $700 to win in reality. That truthfully isn't good enought to race go karts for. Lock at ARCA if you want to see something out of wack dollars wise. Problem is this, no sponsors for racers plus shrinking incomes along with a changing customer base and you have what we have. It takes a creative promoter these days to keep a track going. Bottom line here is you cannot take the top class that we have and build the rules around starting pay. Maybe for the entry classes but not for this one. If you can't afford it don't run it. Sounds harsh but that is what it is. Besides the ones who say they are racing for fun seem to be the same ones who can't compete with those who have the budgets. What is it? racing for fun or racing to win? Its a choice you make when you pick your class to race.

[Brad Skusa]

Doug, on 02 November 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

Scott, There is not a class out there that fit the $200 to start $700 to win in reality. That truthfully isn't good enought to race go karts for. Lock at ARCA if you want to see something out of wack dollars wise. Problem is this, no sponsors for racers plus shrinking incomes along with a changing customer base and you have what we have. It takes a creative promoter these days to keep a track going. Bottom line here is you cannot take the top class that we have and build the rules around starting pay. Maybe for the entry classes but not for this one. If you can't afford it don't run it. Sounds harsh but that is what it is. Besides the ones who say they are racing for fun seem to be the same ones who can't compete with those who have the budgets. What is it? racing for fun or racing to win? Its a choice you make when you pick your class to race.

I picked building an OSLM Because I'm sick of running go-karts for next to nothing around here.......We venture out but because of my father being a Union Tradesman and myself in school and working. It's hard to really venture out of the state. But when we did, we never missed a big race, even if that meant getting the last spot, we still make it out of 100 or so that attempt to qualify in my class. I look at some bigger OSLM races and treat it as a cake walk compared to what I have had to go through making races in karts. It doesn't phase me at all.

One of the biggest kart races of the year this year is the Batesville Indoor Kart Nationals, the class's that Randy and I are running pay $6,000 to win, but only pay to 10th place. All other classes are $750 to win.

The CRI Pro Kart Tour races pay $5,000 to win........nothing to start.

The insane one paid $50,000 to win last year and $20,000 to win this year but pay nothing to start.

In 2010, Shay Chavous made over $110,000 in go-kart racing. Like him, there are 60 or so others literally racing for a living in go-karts.

Mike Luberda told me I am a straight up goofball for not trying to run all of these big events, because we make them, and we finish well each and every time(not bad for a ford pickup and a little 8 foot trailer). But I want to be able to have fans, I want to race in front of crowds, I want to race on the very same race tracks I grew up watching as a little kid. I want to race in the Kalamazoo Klash, the very same race that has so much history and grew up watching every single one of them up until 2008 with my grandpa and his motorhome. I wanna race Berlin one time, I LOVE!!!!! That race track, it looks fun to drive.

I'm going to get my arse kicked this first year, I know it, It's okay because I got arse kicked my first year in go-karts as well, so I know how to handle it. But in 3-5 years time we will be right there.

[russrace]

Doug, on 02 November 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

Scott, There is not a class out there that fit the $200 to start $700 to win in reality.

ABC qualifying rules will sink or swim for many asphalt promoters next few years. Look for more local tracks to go that route. Run what ya brung started oval track racing 60 years ago...it will save it if done properly.

[russrace]

Brad Skusa, on 02 November 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

I'm sick of running go-karts for next to nothing around here.......

Running OSLM's isn't next to nothing...it is nothing

[rwdmonte]

love this debate... but hay when i was growing up supers went fast thats it!!!! so little tire for??? hey you want to go slow get a two barrel...am I right? I run ACSS, I love watching our class try to run with prolate models when they have a show ha again bigtire guys rule...or wait is just us eastside guys like to go fast? IF the 970 tire falls apart DON'T USE THEM.we switched to the tire jegs run and went down to 58 left side man was that slow...60% man thats got to turn

[Rocky]

rwdmonte, on 12 November 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

love this debate... but hay when i was growing up supers went fast thats it!!!! so little tire for??? hey you want to go slow get a two barrel...am I right? I run ACSS, I love watching our class try to run with prolate models when they have a show ha again bigtire guys rule...or wait is just us eastside guys like to go fast? IF the 970 tire falls apart DON'T USE THEM.we switched to the tire jegs run and went down to 58 left side man was that slow...60% man thats got to turn

Problem is, nobody has the same answer as to what a Super IS anymore. Is your car a Super? Can the fans tell? I went to Spartan a few years ago and they had Supers on 970 tires with 4 barrells, is that a Super or is it like one of them CRA Super series cars, or one of them Main event cars (the ones that I identify with as Supers that and dirt late model)... You guys got brand identity problems that need to get fixed if you ever want to get the fans back. I think theres probably about as many late models as ever they just aren't all called Supers no more.

[Brad Skusa]

Rocky, on 12 November 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

Problem is, nobody has the same answer as to what a Super IS anymore. Is your car a Super? Can the fans tell? I went to Spartan a few years ago and they had Supers on 970 tires with 4 barrells, is that a Super or is it like one of them CRA Super series cars, or one of them Main event cars (the ones that I identify with as Supers that and dirt late model)... You guys got brand identity problems that need to get fixed if you ever want to get the fans back. I think theres probably about as many late models as ever they just aren't all called Supers no more.

Tracks have been advertising cars as Outlaw Super Late Models for quite some time now.

[russrace]

Rocky, on 12 November 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

Problem is, nobody has the same answer as to what a Super IS anymore. Is your car a Super? Can the fans tell? I went to Spartan a few years ago and they had Supers on 970 tires with 4 barrells, is that a Super or is it like one of them CRA Super series cars, or one of them Main event cars (the ones that I identify with as Supers that and dirt late model)... You guys got brand identity problems that need to get fixed if you ever want to get the fans back. I think theres probably about as many late models as ever they just aren't all called Supers no more.

The Super term was brought about by Promoters twenty years ago,many tracks still just call them Latemodels. Just because someone sticks 970's on their "Super" doesn't mean much anymore. The issue has been beat to death on this forum for years. It's pretty simple...four slicks isn't a four hundred dollar bill anymore...$500 in most cases. Promoters aren't paying $500 to start weekly anywhere over here. Berlin is the highest start but they only fire them eight times a year. If you want to run a "Super" over here in todays world every single week you are on 970's and looking at $150-$250 to start...simple math has the "Super" world defined today.

[Rocky]

20 years ago, Auto City and Tri City called them Super Stocks still. Owosso called them late models they Owosso started saying super late model when they re branded the pro stocks as late models. Flint and Auburn and Dixie too I guess, branded pro stock as Limited Late. Used to be you ran bomber then Pro Stock and if you wanted to run the half mile you had to get a Super. Needless to say not all of them were as Super as the other ones. Whenever they started having those Limited Late models, Some guys dropped back and your B main from a few years earlier was now LLM. I don't think out west ever had a LLM division. I can only speak of what I know.

[russrace]

Rocky, on 13 November 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

20 years ago, Auto City and Tri City called them Super Stocks still. Owosso called them late models they Owosso started saying super late model when they re branded the pro stocks as late models. Flint and Auburn and Dixie too I guess, branded pro stock as Limited Late. Used to be you ran bomber then Pro Stock and if you wanted to run the half mile you had to get a Super. Needless to say not all of them were as Super as the other ones. Whenever they started having those Limited Late models, Some guys dropped back and your B main from a few years earlier was now LLM. I don't think out west ever had a LLM division. I can only speak of what I know.

Don't know what out west means but Kazoo had 56 LLM's in the pits first year I showed up with a car...32 SLM's...Galesburg had big LLM numbers for years also.

[Rocky]

Really I don't know why I always get into this, I don't own a asphalt LM or live in Michigan. I know Kalamazoo dropped SLM several years ago. I didn't know they had Limited. Kalamazoo has always been a different duck as far as I know. BUT I only really remember racing back to about 85 and we didn't run a limited till 98. I know I have had fans in the stands ask me what the difference between LLM and SLM was cause visually, from the bleachers they looked the same. But that was when there WERE fans in the stands. No reason to worry about that any more because nobody that has Late models every week except Kalamazoo calls them Supers (or tries to sell them as such).

No Late Models or Sprint cars = no fans. period.

[russrace]

Rocky, Kazoo hasn't called it's top class or sold them as full blown Supers in years. They were OLM for many seasons and OSLM has morphed in lately. My car is a full blown dry sump SLM, we run it on both 970 and slicks...I don't have a $30K roller motor so call it what you want. Many guys who run 9" tires have abandoned dry sump because they just don't need it. We run where we can and when we can.

I'm just thankful we have a place to run at all. If all these Superlate experts want to put up some money and pay us weekly to cover four $135.00 slicks at all these tracks I'll show up. I know the promoters have their back against the wall so I'm not going to trash them because they can't run "Supers" every week. You can count on two hands the weekly asphalt tracks running "Supers" every week...this isn't a Michigan or Kalamazoo only issue.

[Rocky]

Langley packs the house for NASCAR LMSC show and those cars aren't even as cool as our limiteds back home, of course Langley is located in a big population area and what not. I guess it don't matter. F1 has changed formulas many times over years to adapt and remained F1. If it was somehow decided that the "pro" late model formula was now "super" I think it would sell better. To be sure most of the good cars in that late model class are far more "super" than the cars I grew up on only that 2 barrel carb is held over from their street stock roots. Your car is a Super. Straight up. And so is Randy Day's working stiff effort. Heck them "pro late models" would have been "Super Late models" in the 80's.... They are all Supers and they are all convuluted to the point of not racing together cause of this difference or that. Unfortunate I guess in this old fan's prospective. I'm a dying breed though.

In Virginia and North Carolina we don't have weekly "super" dirt late models. Our cars are steel block and in some cases steel head motors and a dry sump adds 50 lbs weight and you know what the racing in most cases is still great no crates. Everything else is a late model so LLM I guess but some guys run Super when USLMS or Lucas or whatever show up at a bullring (not usually at a half mile). So I understand it is a "problem", but I don't think it's a "problem" to the point that we can't somehow convince fans that what they are seeing IS top notch late model racing fact is it's GREAT racing. I'm the only fan that ever chimes in on this subject maybe I should shut my mouth or maybe there needs to be more guys buying tickets that care to the point of arguing. There just needs to be more guys buying tickets. The east vs west Michigan thing is an ages old rivalry that isn't going away, it's just too bad there's no real way to sell it have like a East West 100 at a little track like spartan in the middle of the state where every LM, OLM, PLM ACSS etc. champ in the state is locked in to the main and have everybody else work in through heats. Unfortunately even though all them cars are built in the same factories, they can't run together like they did when I was a pup. sad but what do I know I'm just a fan.

[Gunner]

Somewhere on this board the consept of brand identity was brought up too, maybe even in this chain. Anyway, The recipe: Take your existing OSLM (whatever exact flavor they may be so long as they have a wedge body) and put them on the same tires as the ARCA (formerly ASA) Midwest Tour ran last year. For various motor rules at competing tracks, five weight breaks/penalties. Add a couple of lexan fabrications: a cluster of 3 or 4 fins afixed to a base that fasten to the hood with gasketed hood pins. A tall rear spoiler with side are dams fabricated and fastend to the trunk deck in the same manner. Maybe even a side air dam if not a safety issue. This made a readical looking car with a unique identiy that can easily and relatively inexpensively be modifed for sanctioned events and then returned to local track conformity. Idealy, the racers would band together and make such a thing the couuse of rule for tracks and trump the alliane efforts. Certainly, such a concept has a better hope of securing series or class sponsorship.

Regardless, OSLM and SLM racers must face the fact that they are not in a battle. They are retreating. Retreating can be a positive thing of it is a planned effort to withdraw to a place where you might have a chance to succeed, or even gain an advantage in the war and then engage in battle. Retreating without a plan is only delaying the inevitable defeat. If only the OSLM racers in particular would come to realize that, then there might be a hope for their future.

In the meantime, everyone needs to stop focusing on the exceptions that are successful. The fact is, the whole is in trouble and a few bright spots are not significant to the whole. Those bright spots have unique circumstances that work to their advantage. Marketing is what leverages those unique circumstances, and/or created them. What the bright spots have in common is not what the locals here often focus on. What they have in common is the will and commitment to attempt a unique approach. Rather than focus on what wont work here, look to find what might be made to work here. Success = commitment, not results. Results often follow success, but those who measure by results hold back their commitment.

[rwdmonte]

Ok ok am I missing something, pointy nose open back metal body super outlaw. right? so low money wetsump and little tires slow it down,right? drysump big tires no crazy bill boards...fast.right? Now template glass body crate motor, slow motor is our crutch we get big tires and 4 bbl, like jegs or cra or our ACSS class, so why even have little tire 2 bbl wetsump outlaw class? Then you have sportsman class stock front sub 2bbl motor seems like whatever body you strap on... guess i'm missing something...Is it the track that don't want it fast I know its not fans right... theres enduro's for that!

[russrace]

Rocky, on 13 November 2012 - 05:11 PM, said:

Langley packs the house for NASCAR LMSC show and those cars aren't even as cool as our limiteds back home, of course Langley is located in a big population area and what not. I guess it don't matter. F1 has changed formulas many times over years to adapt and remained F1. If it was somehow decided that the "pro" late model formula was now "super" I think it would sell better. To be sure most of the good cars in that late model class are far more "super" than the cars I grew up on only that 2 barrel carb is held over from their street stock roots. Your car is a Super. Straight up. And so is Randy Day's working stiff effort. Heck them "pro late models" would have been "Super Late models" in the 80's.... They are all Supers and they are all convuluted to the point of not racing together cause of this difference or that. Unfortunate I guess in this old fan's prospective. I'm a dying breed though.

In Virginia and North Carolina we don't have weekly "super" dirt late models. Our cars are steel block and in some cases steel head motors and a dry sump adds 50 lbs weight and you know what the racing in most cases is still great no crates. Everything else is a late model so LLM I guess but some guys run Super when USLMS or Lucas or whatever show up at a bullring (not usually at a half mile). So I understand it is a "problem", but I don't think it's a "problem" to the point that we can't somehow convince fans that what they are seeing IS top notch late model racing fact is it's GREAT racing. I'm the only fan that ever chimes in on this subject maybe I should shut my mouth or maybe there needs to be more guys buying tickets that care to the point of arguing. There just needs to be more guys buying tickets. The east vs west Michigan thing is an ages old rivalry that isn't going away, it's just too bad there's no real way to sell it have like a East West 100 at a little track like spartan in the middle of the state where every LM, OLM, PLM ACSS etc. champ in the state is locked in to the main and have everybody else work in through heats. Unfortunately even though all them cars are built in the same factories, they can't run together like they did when I was a pup. sad but what do I know I'm just a fan.

We are working stiffs too...everything in house here. No $4000 shock packages in my shop. There is a East/West 100, it was held at Sandusky a few weeks ago. Good for Langley, at most LMSC tracks the class is dead. Even Martinsville race allowing crate motors in those cars, a big no no to the purists.

[russrace]

Gunner, on 13 November 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

Somewhere on this board the consept of brand identity was brought up too, maybe even in this chain. Anyway, The recipe: Take your existing OSLM (whatever exact flavor they may be so long as they have a wedge body) and put them on the same tires as the ARCA (formerly ASA) Midwest Tour ran last year. For various motor rules at competing tracks, five weight breaks/penalties. Add a couple of lexan fabrications: a cluster of 3 or 4 fins afixed to a base that fasten to the hood with gasketed hood pins. A tall rear spoiler with side are dams fabricated and fastend to the trunk deck in the same manner. Maybe even a side air dam if not a safety issue. This made a readical looking car with a unique identiy that can easily and relatively inexpensively be modifed for sanctioned events and then returned to local track conformity. Idealy, the racers would band together and make such a thing the couuse of rule for tracks and trump the alliane efforts. Certainly, such a concept has a better hope of securing series or class sponsorship.

Regardless, OSLM and SLM racers must face the fact that they are not in a battle. They are retreating. Retreating can be a positive thing of it is a planned effort to withdraw to a place where you might have a chance to succeed, or even gain an advantage in the war and then engage in battle. Retreating without a plan is only delaying the inevitable defeat. If only the OSLM racers in particular would come to realize that, then there might be a hope for their future.

In the meantime, everyone needs to stop focusing on the exceptions that are successful. The fact is, the whole is in trouble and a few bright spots are not significant to the whole. Those bright spots have unique circumstances that work to their advantage. Marketing is what leverages those unique circumstances, and/or created them. What the bright spots have in common is not what the locals here often focus on. What they have in common is the will and commitment to attempt a unique approach. Rather than focus on what wont work here, look to find what might be made to work here. Success = commitment, not results. Results often follow success, but those who measure by results hold back their commitment.

What is the ASA Midwest tire supposed to accomplish? ASA Midwest ran high dollar 2bbl motors in efforts to curb engine costs. They run a harder compound but it still costs $500 a set. Have you ever built a 2bbl lightweight $creamer? ASA Midwest was just taken over by ARCA but will continue to run bastard engine rules according to my sources. I don't understand how this business model helps OSLM?

Gunner, those big OSLM shows were costing promoters $30,000 per night. Do the math...800-900 butts in the stands don't get it. Why do you think races that paid $15,000 to win are down to $5K range? Blame it on economy or whatever, there isn't a base big enough to support those shows anymore. $20000 to win this summer couldn't bring 40 cars. Reality is weekly OLSM platform is much different than special show platforms that might be 8-10 races for the whole summer.