Michigan Short Track Racing Club: It's about time - Michigan Short Track Racing Club

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It's about time

#21 User is offline   MaddMike Icon

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Posted 04 November 2014 - 01:28 PM

View PostCrew Chief, on 02 November 2014 - 09:56 PM, said:

I really don't think a IMCA style modified needs a tube clip. This class was developed for the economy type racer.
We are already crazy with shocks, bump stops and expensive stuff. I hope the Top Speed/ICAR stick with a stock front frame section.
I can see if that fabricated stub becomes common place these mods will turn into NASCAR Type Wheelen mods and they will be a way too expensive to race.
The class numbers will drop drastically.
Just IMHO



Perfect example of mis-information. It costs about $500 more to build a mod chassis than it does to build a fab chassis such as a latemodel.

Every time it's damaged, you have to find another "stock" clip to fix it with. You can't just fix it unless you bend it back and leave it tweaked and weakened.

This would save us a lot of money. Hell, I'd save a couple hundred bucks in FUEL every time I could cut and repair it myself instead of towing it 80 miles to get fixed on the builder's jig.

Mike
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#22 User is offline   mod911 Icon

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Posted 04 November 2014 - 02:09 PM

It is not even worth the hassle of having cheated up tube chassis's around. Add 200 pounds and a 2 bbl and I would vote for it. Other wise, bend it back like we been doing for decades.
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#23 User is offline   ICAR Icon

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Posted 04 November 2014 - 06:56 PM

hold on mike put your hat back Lucas Oil Mods are NOT running tub clip that was BS just get people all jacked up !!!!
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#24 User is offline   mod911 Icon

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 09:05 AM

We are not jacked up,just asking questions to find answers. We should do away with non stock hubs too. That deal has gotten out of control also. I sure do see some weird looking spindles with arms at angles and positions the OEM never had. Some how the rules got jacked up and out of shape. It should be ford on ford and gm on gm, PERIOD. The general never put mustang spindles on anything. Get back to reasonable toys. You can make the front end do whatever you need with out parts from other brands.
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#25 User is offline   superfast_86 Icon

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 09:16 AM

Watching the Lucus Oil Modifieds race, I noticed that some sway bars are mounted on the top of the frame rails and may even be splined sway bars. Is this something that is accepted in ICAR?

Thanks,
Andy
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#26 User is offline   ICAR Icon

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 10:02 AM

ok i see where this is going, this not Lucas oil Modified series.
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#27 User is offline   that_one_guy Icon

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 10:15 AM

View Postsuperfast_86, on 05 November 2014 - 06:16 AM, said:

Watching the Lucus Oil Modifieds race, I noticed that some sway bars are mounted on the top of the frame rails and may even be splined sway bars. Is this something that is accepted in ICAR?

Thanks,
Andy


They also allow the LS type engine with electric fuel pumps and crank triggered ignition, and have been allowing one engine builder to run this engine with full fuel injection, but say hell no to fab clips. I think fab clips make more sense than allowing fuel injected LS engines. But like Dave said, that is lucas, not ICAR.
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#28 User is offline   superfast_86 Icon

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 11:30 AM

View PostICAR, on 06 November 2014 - 01:02 AM, said:

ok i see where this is going, this not Lucas oil Modified series.

Thats not where this is going, if we are trying to keep everyone on a stock clip what is going to be allowed? I just happen to see those in the Lucas Series, but also heard(didn't see myself, thats why originally didn't mention it) there was at least 1 that ran with the ICAR series in 2014 and I am wondering if it is an allowed modification?

Thanks,
Andy
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#29 User is offline   360mad Icon

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 12:20 PM

There was a guy at the local swap meet selling re-popped 68-72 chevelle clips for $900.
The last time I wrecked my mod I couldn't find a clip to replace it, I had to buy another complete car.
The fab clips are easier to get and cheaper.

They run them down here in the crate emod class, they aren't any faster.
They're just straight rail cars, like the Camaro clips (which they don't allow for some stupid reason).

If they opened the rules up to stock Camaro clips, at least that would make some more frames available for us.
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#30 User is offline   MaddMike Icon

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 12:54 PM

Can't buy quality american-cast rotors anymore. They FAIL and cars CRASH.

How could anyone have issue with OEM spec STEEL hubs? They are actually heavier than cast Iron, and if the rules are enforced, they have identical demensions to OEM.

If anyone is using directional vented non-oem dimention rotors, they are cheating. Easy to see- they stand out like a fabbed spindle, I mean sore thumb.

Mike
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#31 User is offline   MaddMike Icon

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 12:56 PM

View Post360mad, on 05 November 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

There was a guy at the local swap meet selling re-popped 68-72 chevelle clips for $900.
The last time I wrecked my mod I couldn't find a clip to replace it, I had to buy another complete car.
The fab clips are easier to get and cheaper.

They run them down here in the crate emod class, they aren't any faster.
They're just straight rail cars, like the Camaro clips (which they don't allow for some stupid reason).

If they opened the rules up to stock Camaro clips, at least that would make some more frames available for us.


Fab clips aren't any faster. Fab clips are cheaper.

No further discussion required. This is a no-brainer.

Why can't people accept the future? Cash for clunkers should have been a real eye-opener for mod racers and sanctioning bodies.

Mike
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#32 User is offline   MaddMike Icon

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 12:58 PM

I started my last race intentionally 200 lbs heavy. Ran over 100 lbs heavy for the whole season.

Weight penalties are a myth.

Mike
I do it because I can. I can because I want to. I want to because you said I couldn't.

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#33 User is offline   MaddMike Icon

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 01:05 PM

View PostKevin 05, on 03 November 2014 - 09:15 PM, said:

How about they outlaw bump stops that is a $500+ expense that certainly isn't stock or like it was years ago,, And it would save a good portion of the class money since they can't figure them out or drive with them anyway.. Or how about going back to chrome Carerra Shocks for all the big money guys. Or get rid or $500 Sweet steering boxes,


good point- Bump stops cause wrecks and cost people money even if they aren't using them. Darty cars on knife-edge- only a few teams really have them figured out for a driver friendly setup.

I disagree on the steering boxes though. a $500 steering box is funcionally better, and safer, than having a $300 steering box and a $200 quickening system. OEM gearboxes need ESD porting to work properly with a quickener, and without a quickener we would have more spins and crashes due to not being able to keep up with the steering.

Mike
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#34 User is offline   that_one_guy Icon

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 01:11 PM

View Post360mad, on 05 November 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

There was a guy at the local swap meet selling re-popped 68-72 chevelle clips for $900.
The last time I wrecked my mod I couldn't find a clip to replace it, I had to buy another complete car.
The fab clips are easier to get and cheaper.

They run them down here in the crate emod class, they aren't any faster.
They're just straight rail cars, like the Camaro clips (which they don't allow for some stupid reason).

If they opened the rules up to stock Camaro clips, at least that would make some more frames available for us.


I just installed one of these repop clips that was bought from ellis a few years ago. The lower control arms wouldn't even bolt up. They were 1/2inch off. I had to cut the control arm cups off to get an arm to fit. a 1000$ frame that I have to spend another 2 days fabricating on. They are expensive, and you have to hope whoever welded it up has an accurate jig, or try to piece the 11 pieces together yourself. Or find a big car frame(which you are lucky to find for less than 400$), blast it, weld all seams, cut spring cups out, and plate rear crossmember for radiator clearance. You get up over 1000$ really quickly.
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#35 User is offline   Tony P Icon

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 03:28 PM

I wonder what the real cons are to allowing a fabbed clip? It seems like most people are already re-locating the lower control arm mounting points (have been for many years) and you can't be wider than 78" across the front tread.

So far we discussed some pros, such as cheaper, easier to fix, easier to find, but the only real argument against them is that we just don't want them. I am not really for or against them at this point, just curious if we can make a true comparison before we just say no.

What, if any issues were noticed in the late model/sportsman type classes when they allowed the fabbed camero clips to race with stock clips? Were the stock clip cars still as competitive?

Happy off season :)

Tony P.
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#36 User is offline   mod911 Icon

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Posted 05 November 2014 - 07:06 PM

Mike, he said NO FAB clips in icar or lucas mods,did ya miss that. No tech is my bit$h. Just toss all the rules I say,I love board/wing 11inch slicks racing anyway. NO rules,bring it on,won plenty of them and could do more. No tech inspections at all instead of poor ones. Then we all play by the same rules-NONE. Easy teck, no crying ,if ya ain't got enough go home get more. No whinners.
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#37 User is offline   Kevin 05 Icon

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 05:41 AM

Dave Part of your statement was correct I was WRONG stating it was Lucas. I was told it was a California based Mod series I was the one that Assumed Lucas so it was really a lot of BS just to get people cranked up..It was just a question I thought would bring up discussions.. I have told many people that you are doing a great job with ICAR. It has come a very long way from when I ran it for Jim. Keep up the good work and I hope things are even better for you in 2015.

Mike if you can find me ready to weld front clip for that kind of $$$ I'll take 5 right now..Impala's or the likes please.

Dick Yes I was there in the chrome days ( I preferred the gold ones myself since we were good friends with George) But they sure were a step up from the old Gabrials or Monroe truck shocks) I'm not really out to undermine the mod life,,but from a builder/repair side of life the front clips are getting harder to find all the time, and I don't care who you get the repop from they are all junk and you can tweek them more than anything.

That One Guy.. That new car looks great as did the black one. Good luck to your whole team in 2015.

V thanks for having a site where people can go and talk,

Still could take $500 easy out of a fab clip Mod chassis and then you could buy more cheater parts
The Wizard of Air

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#38 User is offline   mod911 Icon

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 08:26 AM

YA remember when information was impossible to get 20 years ago? Now we are all in touch with anyone in the world we want. Sure is much better. I can see your point Kevin but it isn't worth the problems it will cause. IF we had a fixture that tracks could use and DID use it may be different. But we all know where tech goes when car counts are low. Giving better funded teams another way to cheat and win unfairly is never good.
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#39 User is offline   MaddMike Icon

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 12:55 PM

I know they aren't allowing it, but why throw out a very logical discussion? Like Tony mentioned, the only "Con" so far is "don't want it", and that doesn't seem like it holds much water against all of the many pros of allowing fab clips.

Why would we need a fixture? Makes no real sense, there's no magic in any of it. Perhaps set a max height for lower control arm mounting points to keep them similar, but what's the point of specs when people are already working them over anyways. The

Re-popped clips are already making it a fab car anyways. But now it's even more expensive than ever...but builders or teams tweak it how they want it now, don't you think?

OEM control arms, OEM spindles, OEM dimension hubs and rotors, and 78" width at the bead of the wheel.

We need to adapt to modern times based on what is available in current day and age.

Does anyone have a 75 caprice front clip for me? Legit question- I need spares and the outlook seems pretty poor.
I do it because I can. I can because I want to. I want to because you said I couldn't.

Todays Listening experience-

Dope- I Don't give a ****

Give it a whirl.
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#40 User is offline   that_one_guy Icon

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Posted 06 November 2014 - 01:37 PM

View PostMaddMike, on 06 November 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

I know they aren't allowing it, but why throw out a very logical discussion? Like Tony mentioned, the only "Con" so far is "don't want it", and that doesn't seem like it holds much water against all of the many pros of allowing fab clips.

Why would we need a fixture? Makes no real sense, there's no magic in any of it. Perhaps set a max height for lower control arm mounting points to keep them similar, but what's the point of specs when people are already working them over anyways. The

Re-popped clips are already making it a fab car anyways. But now it's even more expensive than ever...but builders or teams tweak it how they want it now, don't you think?

OEM control arms, OEM spindles, OEM dimension hubs and rotors, and 78" width at the bead of the wheel.

We need to adapt to modern times based on what is available in current day and age.

Does anyone have a 75 caprice front clip for me? Legit question- I need spares and the outlook seems pretty poor.


Do OEM spindles include those pinto spindles that are being cast/drilled with different pin inclinations? It seems everyone wants to keep everything OEM, until it wont work on their car, then they want to allow massaged spindles and aftermarket center links.

I agree, as long as everything is OEM, and meets the width rules, why not?
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