Michigan Short Track Racing Club: Tire Test @ Springport - Michigan Short Track Racing Club

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Tire Test @ Springport New Hoosier D800

#1 User is offline   governor Icon

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Posted 28 November 2015 - 08:56 PM

Back in Oct myself Nyle Weiler and Walt Obrinski got a chance to test the new Hoosier D800 that Top Speed will be using in 2016. This tire looks just like the current Hoosier 970 but is a brand new tire, it has a much stiffer side wall but tread pattern is the same. Hoosier has been making a road race tire for Continental and will be using the same compound for this new tire. With this compound on a Wisconsin road course we were told it was good for 9 heat cycles on a 2 1/2 mile track with 35 lap events.

In attendance were Jim Leasure, Jeff and Denny from Springport and Dave from Top Speed who provided the tires, then various drivers and crew that were timing and doing durometer checks each session.

We started off with a used set of tires that were ran at Winchester for one of the Top Speed events so they had Qualifying, heat race and a full feature on them. The used set was just as fast as a low lap set of regular 970's that we did base line test on that day. They did not drop off in times during any of the test session, in fact as we learned what tire pressure was needed they actually showed better lap times. We also were able to test 2 sets of sticker D800, these were only about 1 10th quicker than the tires that had multiple heat cycle. Late in the last test Nyle was able to turn times that would be good enough for top 5 Qualifying on a normal night, mind you this was on tires with 3-4 hard 15-20 lap test sessions.

I have to tell you we beat the living dog crap out of these tires trying to blister, ruin what have you and they never wavered or dropped off on times. The next night at Springports Banquet Denny Maher came up to me and said you were just flat trying to destroy that tire but it held up better than and was more consistent than any tire I have seen.

For a track that is abrasive like Springport we were very impressed with how well they held up and how consistent the laps times were and how good the durometer readings were. This tire seems to show more promise for extended wear and repeatably than tires I have raced on or tested. I have no doubt that on a track like Springport, Whittemore or Owosso these tires would be good for 2-3 nights and at Auto City, Spartan or Berlin they would be good for 3-5 nights.

It is my belief that tracks would benefit by going with a rule that you must qualify and race on the same tire, rather than allowing the well funded teams to put on new tires for qualifying and or the feature. Berlin and Top Speed already have this rule.

I would put this compound on the same level as the old KK704 that IMCA had years ago.

Top Speed has such faith in this tire that they will be going back to a 2 tire rule for 2016. Plus Baer Field and Shadybowl will also be on this tire. This tire change should help get more cars to more events next year. It sounds like the tire may be 3-4.00 more than the current 970 but the anticipated increased wear would be more than offset by the added cost.

It would be my hope that local mod tracks will adopt this tire so we can have more tracks on the same tire rather than have the mess we have had the last few years which has no doubt had a negative effect on were teams decided to race and hurt car counts. Sure it will cut tire revenue for tracks but if it will get more cars out that can again afford to race and on the same tire were ever they go it should be a win win for all. After all a promoter generates more revenue with added cars and pit pass sales than selling a few tires.

I look forward to your comments about the need for a single tire again.

Gov
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#2 User is offline   mod911 Icon

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 02:47 PM

Here we go again,more dollars to save money...a new tire will solve things story again. Maybe if tires were not a monopoly the price would go down. A few more years tires will be 150 and we will save BIG time then. Maybe at 200 we can retire on the savings....between a 200 dollar tire a 20k motor the savings will double in enough time. Since the tire saves so much you can spend more on the motor....lol,,,,hahahahaha. And still get beat....Try a 8 inch tire, a hard one too.
I would say enough people have been chased away by stupid (but profitable for some) tire changes. IMCA tar rules is my vote...Get back the then old rules for the old reasons. Make it affordable for more racers. Maybe we should change tires weekly to save the most.....this logic defies common sense but its used on a regular basis.

I wonder just HOW much SOMEONE makes every tire switch? Sell 100 cars 6 tires initially(some many more) that is 100x6 at probably 30 dollar mark up and that is 600 x 30 =18k.....then continuing sales till ya convince someone to suggest we need new tires again. Then do it again, hell ya if it was me doing the selling I would give a few to hand picked monkeys to convince everyone else they need new tires to save money. How many times is this record going to skip before some one changes the tune?
Maybe requiring a certain tube frame and new tires every 50 laps and no limit shocks and motors and aero bodies and wicker bills and air foils and all the stuff circle jerks rag mag put on their car will save tar mods. Buying a rag mag from someone who will cheat its customers and get all kinds of top notch free stuff and stomp holes the a$$es of those same customers with free cheated up stuff is fkn disgusting. Drop your subscription,you see the same pics and diagrams for 30 years.

Everyone is chasing the buck and all some want to do is be competitive and have fun saturday nights...but that is not helpful for the buy me a win crowd...
My tar car is sitting there waiting for some magical moment to come when i can use the same tires and be competitive for more than 50 laps even if that means you have to turn in a serialized tire with cords showing to be able to purchase another....Wear it out or run it is the best. Takes tire money and puts it back in your pocket nightly....THAT IS SAVINGS for those who cannot add so well.....
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#3 User is offline   governor Icon

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 07:26 PM

We would once again like to thank you for all your insight and positive comments on a pavement topic.

Gov
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#4 User is offline   OLDGOLD Icon

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 07:55 PM

View Postgovernor, on 30 November 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

We would once again like to thank you for all your insight and positive comments on a pavement topic.

Gov
once again racers saving us money,having to get yet another tire how about we have racers get a rock hard radial from walmart or our local discount tire,But wait that wouldnt make any money for the promotor then would it?bring back the formula g60 tire to eliminate the $20,000 engines,,burts and brinns were gonna save money.why is it in the past econo mods were built?do you think it was to to save the racer money or just start another division? 45 years ago i raced in a division that was stock cars that were hobby stocks and then racers wanted some changes and it was called streetstocks and then they added screw jacks and aluminum intakes and called them sportsman,each time the divisions changed it was fueled by a driver who wanted whats best for the racers yet never once looked at the racers wallets.you see where late models went and look where imca mods evolved to.Now its 5 divisions with variations of rules all costing the racer and never costing the promotor anything. I am not bashing the promotor side of this deal but i am bashing what is changing something that does not need change each time a change is made it either isolates other promotors or puts the racer back in the storage building. Need i remind the mod racers of that great almighty tire that was the save us all do everything tire from owosso and then racers bitched it was junk after 20 laps and not repeatable. let me spend my money dont spend it for me unless you like 6-8 car fields.maybe before we change tires lets allow late models remove front fenders and run with mods?that would save money .that isnt any different than allowing fabbed frames.
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#5 User is offline   schinde Icon

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 07:41 AM

Tires again.

This time, it seems as if this might be a good tire to make a switch to. 2 or 3 nights at a Springport type track, 4 to 5 at a Spartan?

Sounds like less money on tires to be spent by the racer.

So what is wrong with that?

have a good day,

schinde
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#6 User is offline   Kevin 05 Icon

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 08:56 AM

I guess I'm a little confused. Dick since you have come over to the dark side (DIRT) why do you even care what the TAR boys are doing?? Seems to just crank up the BP more..Just go spend the night at TC or Crystal,beat them home and set on the porch and wave as they all come home.Hell no rules are ever going to change on the dirt side that will cost you money,and I know for a fact that there isn't a dirt racer in the world that cheats.and I speak from years of experience.Maybe the Top Speed guys should look at adding a couple dirt shows like they use to have when Dave Dayton ran that series,that would show them.
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#7 User is offline   zerospeed Icon

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 10:13 AM

The 2 tire rule is great... no matter how good or bad the tires are, you can still only buy two.
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Posted 02 December 2015 - 08:33 PM

How about a hard tire that will last 4 or 5 nights ? That would mean lower tire costs. That would mean less HP to be competitive, which would lead to lower engine costs. The good drivers would still be good drivers. The not so good drivers that go through tires like crazy would still be not so good drivers. The way I see it hard tires with less grip would solve a lot of problems. I am quite sure it would also lead to a lot more passing.
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#9 User is offline   18degree Icon

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 11:42 PM

I just hope the new tire is rubber. last few years they come out with a tire stuff it full of plastic and say after 3 racers it still looks new. In real life it junk after 3 heat cycles but it still looks new. My opinion the 970* was the best tire we had in years. The 2 tire rule does not work. the tracks after a few months don't have enough people to police it. Nothing beats new tires if you race with hot shoes with a lot of sponsors or a group of wealthy business owners. They will buy new tires 2 0r 4 or 8 no matter what. What I've always found funny is for another 15 dollars we could run a 10 inch tire then are hot rods would really fly. In real life Harder tires cost more money. Reason if you have raced a modified in the last ten years you have to much engine. So the racer in us spend more money trying to hook up the junk tire provided. I love going to race meetings their is always some old timer who raced 25 years ago saying how great the claim days where. Those days where way more work. Id rather have 3 good engines that will run 2 to 3 seasons 15 to 20 races a season. Instead of 8 claimers no power blow up oil burning specials. I'm almost done Dirt modified racing is no way cheaper than asphalt. The pay is even worse in the back of the field. the car counts are greater which equals more competition. The dirt and horrible track prep equals way more wear and tear. usually less tech if any. Most of the fast chassis are made to flex a certain amount so after a hard season they are garbage. if you cant afford asphalt try dirt its fun all racing is fun ill se ya in the D main.

IM Done
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Posted 05 December 2015 - 10:24 PM

View Post18degree, on 02 December 2015 - 11:42 PM, said:

I just hope the new tire is rubber. last few years they come out with a tire stuff it full of plastic and say after 3 racers it still looks new. In real life it junk after 3 heat cycles but it still looks new. My opinion the 970* was the best tire we had in years. The 2 tire rule does not work. the tracks after a few months don't have enough people to police it. Nothing beats new tires if you race with hot shoes with a lot of sponsors or a group of wealthy business owners. They will buy new tires 2 0r 4 or 8 no matter what. What I've always found funny is for another 15 dollars we could run a 10 inch tire then are hot rods would really fly. In real life Harder tires cost more money. Reason if you have raced a modified in the last ten years you have to much engine. So the racer in us spend more money trying to hook up the junk tire provided. I love going to race meetings their is always some old timer who raced 25 years ago saying how great the claim days where. Those days where way more work. Id rather have 3 good engines that will run 2 to 3 seasons 15 to 20 races a season. Instead of 8 claimers no power blow up oil burning specials. I'm almost done Dirt modified racing is no way cheaper than asphalt. The pay is even worse in the back of the field. the car counts are greater which equals more competition. The dirt and horrible track prep equals way more wear and tear. usually less tech if any. Most of the fast chassis are made to flex a certain amount so after a hard season they are garbage. if you cant afford asphalt try dirt its fun all racing is fun ill se ya in the D main.

IM Done

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#11 User is offline   GavinHunyady187 Icon

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 08:33 AM

No dog in this fight, but why is no data ever published? I know from seeing tire tests that there is a lot of data taken by the manufacturer. Why dont they share it to prove the point they are making. Instead it leaves us with speculation and ambiguous opinions. (or was hoosier not present, and this was an independent test?)
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#12 User is offline   governor Icon

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Posted 07 December 2015 - 01:30 PM

View PostGavinHunyady187, on 07 December 2015 - 08:33 AM, said:

No dog in this fight, but why is no data ever published? I know from seeing tire tests that there is a lot of data taken by the manufacturer. Why dont they share it to prove the point they are making. Instead it leaves us with speculation and ambiguous opinions. (or was hoosier not present, and this was an independent test?)


This was not a Hoosier sponsored test, some of us had heard about this new tire and wanted to test it. All drivers have logged many laps
and wins at Springport so we felt this was about as real world testing as we could get. I know telling this to an engineer is like telling
you ice wont melt on a hot day, but it's what we had to work with.

Gov
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Posted 08 December 2015 - 12:02 PM

What Dan is trying to say, is there was no test plan.
Just race cars, tires, stop watches, and a durometer gauge.
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#14 User is offline   Kevin 05 Icon

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Posted 08 December 2015 - 12:40 PM

Brian,,I'm glad you cleared that up,,because I was going to remind him that is was some of us "Engineers" that taught him to put his Jack in the freezer so he would need all that ice taking up space.
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#15 User is offline   GavinHunyady187 Icon

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 07:47 AM

View Postgovernor, on 07 December 2015 - 01:30 PM, said:

This was not a Hoosier sponsored test, some of us had heard about this new tire and wanted to test it. All drivers have logged many laps
and wins at Springport so we felt this was about as real world testing as we could get. I know telling this to an engineer is like telling
you ice wont melt on a hot day, but it's what we had to work with.

Gov



I was just generalizing, it seems like the real data is never shared even from the real tire tests. You're right though, this sounds more like grab-assing around running laps than it does actual testing. (not saying its completely without value, but it may have been a wasted opportunity)

You should have started with 2 cars and 2 sets of each tires new (16tires total), 1 car on 970s and 1 car on 880s run laps, record lap times, wear, temp... switch to the other new set on each, repeat, switch back repeat, again, again... then you have real data to look at. You can rule out affect of the track speeding up or slowing down, you can see real repeat-ability and wear compared to the current tire.

This isnt just my opinion, this is how real testing is done, when I asked the same question to the sprint car drivers that tested the new hoosiers it was how SOD and Hoosier tested for their new tire. Regardless, the real data was never shared and that is something that all racers should be angry about. That's racer's budgets first and foremost... bottom line.

Good luck with your decision!
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#16 User is offline   RowZ Icon

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 09:08 AM

Agreed Gavin.
And then the same tires need to sit a week, then do it all over again, same track, cars, and drivers.
Maybe even a third week, pending results from the second week.

For what its worth, Hoosier set up a tire test at Springport two years ago at seasons end that I took part in, and they shared the data (Lap times, lap counts, basic obsevations).
Jeff Parish and Rob Jenkins did put it out there for anyone to see as I recall.

Hoosier did not come back and share their anaysis of the data, nor any post test conclusions.
It was only one day, with no return after the tires sat for a week.

And Kevin, it goes to show that you can still teach an old dog new tricks.
Now if the Gov would just put a freezer in his trailer.....

-Brian
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#17 User is offline   governor Icon

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 10:10 AM

Gavin,read my first post again, we had mounted 970 that both cars ran baseline times on, we had bare wheels for the new tires for both cars 16 total.multiple guys running watch and 2 guys with durometers.we did this for free and didn't take a dime Brian Roes.

Gov
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#18 User is offline   mod911 Icon

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 03:56 PM

Would your college professor approve of this test? Is it done under specified conditions? Is it repeatable? What qualifies the people who conducted the test? WHy were no notes and results posted? JUST take our word maybe???? WHY was no one else notified so they could at least OBSERVE? As always I figure this is a deal being pushed by those who BENEFIT form the move.
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#19 User is offline   governor Icon

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 05:17 PM

Was to poor to attend college, it was not raining, cant repeat today track not open, we were all seasoned racers, forgot paper and pencil, our word is good enough for our buds, Jeff Parish posted notice of the test and anyone could attend, i sure hope we benifit from better more repeatable tire wear and reduced cost.

Gov
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#20 User is offline   governor Icon

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 10:13 PM

LMFAO, good one took the thoughts right off my keyboard.

Gov
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