Michigan Short Track Racing Club: LATE MODEL ALLIANCE - Michigan Short Track Racing Club

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LATE MODEL ALLIANCE Information/Suggestion Thread

#1 User is offline   fastforward Icon

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 07:06 PM

****Can This Post be Pinned In The Forum?****

Maybe we can start a posting that will actively convey all our questions/concerns/suggestions regarding the LATE MODEL ALLIANCE rules package to the "powers that be".

Outlaw Super Late Model racing needs everyone's (track owners, promotors, drivers, fans and car owners) help and consideration to keep the division moving forward.

FOR EXAMPLE:

What are the current problems with the ALLIANCE rules package?

What rules are necessary? Which rules are not?

What rules prohibit you from racing at more than one track?

How different are the body rules from track to track?

Are there rules teched at one track but not at others that create problems?

Should their be different weight's for dry sump/wet sump? Different weights for small and big cubic inch engines?

And last but not least....TIRES... Which tire brand/make/compound would be best for the outlaw super lates?

It is my objective to create a dialogue among all the stake holders involved in the outlaw super late model industry and hopefully the ALLIANCE will listen and take into consideration the current issues discussed here.
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#2 User is offline   outlaw latemodel Icon

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 07:17 PM

if you go to my other post you can see some results for what you are trying to, there is also a poll there
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Posted 15 September 2010 - 10:51 PM

Most of the body rules should be thrown out. These are outlaw cars and the body rules are more controlled than template cars now. Lets get these cars looking wild again like back in the late 70's and the 80's. Let there be wedge noses like some tracks allow, wider cars, small verticals from the spoiler forward. Only have a small basic set of body rules. Max width, max spoiler size, max spoiler height, max track width(MEASURED ON THE RIM so going from tire to different tire doesn't affect the track width, and make the motor set back the same across the page(4" and Fords 5")since some tracks allow the Fords the extra 1" since their furthest forward plug is on the right side and the right front is further forward then the left front wheel, same left side weight rule and overall weight rule. Have all the tracks measure the same way with the same go or no go gauges. There should be one set of rules and one style of go/no go gauges to be used the same way at all the tracks and series.
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#4 User is offline   Doug Icon

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:45 AM

Basic rules,
Measure wheel base (82 is fine)at tire sidewall on the ground, Kalamazoo has a very simple tool for this.

Nose, Aftermarkets, Dominator, Fivestar MDC, True Downforce, Howe Camaro. Absolutely no wedge noses like the Zoo allowed because they can be used as weapons and can cut down tires because they wedge under the car in front to far.

Spoiler, 8 inch, 42 inches high max.

No verticals

14 inch tall back panels(for sponsor placement and to clean up the back side)

2700 pounds before race with driver for dry sumps and 2650 for wet sumps. Should have been this way from the beginning.

Can the left side rule.

Engine set back 4" chevy 5" ford measured on the right front.

Tires: ? probably the most important one though. I have heard the 970 is in the end stages of it's life from good sources, maybe the new CRA slick as I hear it is durable enough to be rotated. Any one with knowledge on that please chime in.

Overhangs and roof heights can stay the same. Get rid of the side "swoosh" and 3 inch spoiler offset rule that nobody looked at anyway. Also can the 9" inch ledge rule at 52" and the degree rule for the pillar panel.

After looking at all the rules no wonder some tech takes forever, maybe it can be easier and take less time and we could actually spend less time at the tracks before the races. Also only have one practice session on race day. Saves the racers tire wear and engine wear.


Consistancy in how things are measured is a must. We were wide at Dixie because they measure at the spindle whereas the Zoo and Berlin measure the base. Hard to change at that point and we had a 100 pound penalty levied that night at Dixie. Although at race height it would have been very close, need to eliminate this factor. Not saying Dixie is wrong just it need to be consistant in how it is measured.
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#5 User is offline   russrace Icon

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 11:42 AM

The Alliance will never address the issues because all the asphalt promoters have different agendas and home teams to protect...that said

Doug is correct, bring back the rear panel. That cost me a major sponsor a few years ago, it's the only panel the fans can read at speed. The panels used to be very colorful and an added touch for the fans to see.

2700#, no leftside, enough races were run this summer with no LS on both 970/35-45's (at least over here) to prove all combos were competitive. Both wet and dry sumps led laps at M40's slick race. The drys held a slight edge in quals but a few good setup wet sumps were even when the tires wore. 2700# across the board makes no excuses for any OLM-SLM not to show up.

Noses...when did 1985 return? Aftermarket noses need to be used. Not the time to piss off Five Star, Dominator, Howe and the others who have supported short track racing for many years.

I think the cars need something to spruce up...8" verticals on the LS quarters mid wheel to spoiler wouldn't hurt anything

Tire width rules...time to bury all these weird threadwidth rules...it's 82" outside to outside period.

970's, I heard IMCA has two years remaining on contract w/Hoosier so they will be around

9" slicks, 970's, 35/45's...as long as we have different tracks on different tires the OLM/SLM debate will continue. I don't think diehard slick teams will ever switch. I did notice on the slick races in the westside the majority of the cars appear to be conforming to the 970 engine combo with Berlin the exception. The problem with Berlin is you can count on one hand the Supers left running for points.

My prediction for 2011...a few prominent tracks will just post basic OLM rules to keep what car count they have and say the hell with the Alliance. Like Doug says, you can go to four different "Alliance" tracks and they will interpet rules as they wish anyway.
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Posted 16 September 2010 - 09:07 PM

I think the dirt style verticals on the rear spoiler would be nice to add. I think getting rid of the 3" rule would be great it would be way less work building a body. Do away with the ledge rule. i think the cars look cool like in OSCAAR with the huge ledges. I do agree with Doug the nose should be PLASTIC!! I don't mind the wedges but they should be plastic. I think having some topless races would be cool. The topless 100 is one of the most popular dirt races there is. Fans love to see the driver work but I do think the Alliance needs to get on one page first.
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#7 User is offline   Gunner Icon

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 11:00 PM

I would add 3 or 4 verticals to the nose/hood as well as those on the rear. Rear verticals could extend from the back edge of the window opening to the spoiler. The more vertial surface area to grab the air, the better. All verticals are clear lexan, no graphics or sponsors. The rear would have a 2-tiered spoiler to catch some air and to let some through; adjustable. Back panel for sure, could be designed to bring some air out from under the car and channel it up to the back of the spoiler. Two different tires to choose from to introduce a variable. Deep invert, double file re-starts.
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#8 User is offline   russrace Icon

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 09:14 AM

I doubt you see two tires, any series running two tire selections raises the tire bill as they get more sticky and $$$ as the season moves on. We ran four different compounds in the Mich/Ind area a few years ago and I will never do that again on asphalt, that parked alot of teams and many never recovered. If you have spent $5000 on Hoosiers and Goodyear releases a tire two tenths faster mid July-guess what happens to your tire budget. Even F1 has dropped tire wars. Also Goodyear and Hoosier hand over some points and sanction purse money to many of these tracks-if one runs both they will lose all those incentives. In this economy the tire companies aren't going to get into a bidding war.

2011 isn't going to be much different than 2010 unless someone comes up with a big benefit for each track to make major changes. I did hear today from a good source the 970 deal could be heading a different direction. Hoosier has apparently slowed production and the 9" slick push is heating up...that could change the SLM/OLM landscape next season for sure.
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Posted 17 September 2010 - 11:15 AM

The besst suggestion I have is to write these idea's down, and present them to the track or organization that you are racing with. As of now, yes there will be another Allience meeting after the season. Remember, the rules for 2010 were put out there to see what worked,and what didn't. Rather than continue to beat the dead horse of what doesn't work, be constuctive on what will work with some compromise factored in. Even Supermodifieds adopted a certain set of rules to maintain the class and those numbers of cars after some hand ringing are seeing a comeback. The promotors do want to see outlaw late models continue, if not they would just throw in the towel and the grief and try something else. Thanks for reading this, See Ya! P.S. Before somebody comes on and says the promotors don't respond to suggestion, think about how you present it!
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#10 User is offline   russrace Icon

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 11:27 AM

The problem with the Alliance is it can't address the most important aspect of the Outlaw deal...under the hood.

We have 500hp cars and 700hp cars, that won't change in 2011. Whatever rules suit each tracks regulars will be their 2011 rules. Dixie/Toledo aren't changing their SLM rules, Kazoo/Plymouth aren't changing their OLM rules. Vertical,panel,nose rules, etc aren't going to determine or allow 80% of these cars to travel and race against each other.

That's just the way the Outlaw world is in asphalt racing today.
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#11 User is offline   outlaw latemodel Icon

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 11:28 AM

View Postrussrace, on 17 September 2010 - 10:14 AM, said:

I doubt you see two tires, any series running two tire selections raises the tire bill as they get more sticky and $$$ as the season moves on. We ran four different compounds in the Mich/Ind area a few years ago and I will never do that again on asphalt, that parked alot of teams and many never recovered. If you have spent $5000 on Hoosiers and Goodyear releases a tire two tenths faster mid July-guess what happens to your tire budget. Even F1 has dropped tire wars. Also Goodyear and Hoosier hand over some points and sanction purse money to many of these tracks-if one runs both they will lose all those incentives. In this economy the tire companies aren't going to get into a bidding war.

2011 isn't going to be much different than 2010 unless someone comes up with a big benefit for each track to make major changes. I did hear today from a good source the 970 deal could be heading a different direction. Hoosier has apparently slowed production and the 9" slick push is heating up...that could change the SLM/OLM landscape next season for sure.



yes we all know whats gonna happen, its not about a new tire with hoosier its about more money, lets not think for a minute that this not their way of raising prices,

why does it have to be a hoosier there are tires out their that are just as fast with a way better price

i believe if they go to a different hoosier in the west side and raise prices it is gonna seperate the class more as some promotors will look at different tires
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#12 User is offline   TaBOGIE Icon

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 11:43 AM

[quote name='TaBOGIE' date='18 September 2010 - 03:40 AM' timestamp='1284741630' post='205269']
2700 pounds before race with driver for dry sumps and 2650 for wet sumps. Should have been this way from the beginning.


Outlawed Bodied Cars:
2700 pounds before the race (Dry Sump Motors)
2650 pounds before the race (Wet Sump Motors)
2600 pounds before the race (Sealed Crate Motors)
All cars 60% leftside weight
Terry A. Bogusz
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Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:19 PM

RUSSRACE. Just curious, what is the motor rule for dirt late models. See Ya!
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Posted 17 September 2010 - 01:28 PM

View PostVoice Over, on 18 September 2010 - 04:19 AM, said:

RUSSRACE. Just curious, what is the motor rule for dirt late models. See Ya!



here are the UMP dirt late model engine rules,,,baically,,aluminum block and heads, unlimited Cubic inch.

15.1 Engines

A,) Only conventional type V-8 engines with the cam in the block will be permitted. There will be no limit on the cubic inch displacement.

B.) All engines must be based on a manufactured, factory design.

C.) Aluminum or steel blocks will be permitted.

D.) All engines must be normally aspirated with a single conventional-type four (4) barrel carburetor.

E.) The engine must have an operating self-starting mechanism. Vehicles that require a ‘push start’ will not be permitted.

F.) Only a single distributor and magneto will be permitted. Coil pack and/or engines that have individual ignition systems, electronic or mechanical for each cylinder will not be permitted.

G.) A maximum of 25 ˝”-inches from the center of the ball joint to the front of the motor plate/engine bell housing flange will be permitted.

H.) Only two (2) valves and one (1) spark plug will be permitted per cylinder.

I.) In the event that there are new engine components and/or a new engine configuration they must be submitted per the World Racing Group submission requests prior to being introduced into competition.
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#15 User is offline   russrace Icon

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 02:18 PM

View PostVoice Over, on 17 September 2010 - 01:19 PM, said:

RUSSRACE. Just curious, what is the motor rule for dirt late models. See Ya!


Run what ya brung, and bring enough.
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#16 User is offline   russrace Icon

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 02:24 PM

View Postoutlaw latemodel, on 17 September 2010 - 12:28 PM, said:

yes we all know whats gonna happen, its not about a new tire with hoosier its about more money, lets not think for a minute that this not their way of raising prices,

why does it have to be a hoosier there are tires out their that are just as fast with a way better price

i believe if they go to a different hoosier in the west side and raise prices it is gonna seperate the class more as some promotors will look at different tires


I don't see tire prices up, I also don't see tracks with 20+ year associations with Hoosier jumping ship over a few bucks. Remember, this is still a people business, Gary Howe and other track owners have long business relationships with Hoosier. If any of us produced race tires and made one style so good it lasted a month on a Latemodel we wouldn't be in business very long. If you have been to Hoosiers factory south of South Bend they are what they are for a reason. They might not have the best tire made but they can ship in anywhere in the US pretty quick.
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#17 User is offline   russrace Icon

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 02:29 PM

[quote name='TaBOGIE' date='17 September 2010 - 12:43 PM' timestamp='1284741788' post='205270']

View PostTaBOGIE, on 18 September 2010 - 03:40 AM, said:

2700 pounds before race with driver for dry sumps and 2650 for wet sumps. Should have been this way from the beginning.


Outlawed Bodied Cars:
2700 pounds before the race (Dry Sump Motors)
2650 pounds before the race (Wet Sump Motors)
2600 pounds before the race (Sealed Crate Motors)
All cars 60% leftside weight


Terry, maybe on slicks but on 970's the weight breaks in my opinon are not effective. 2600-2650# promotes expensive lightweight components. When we ran 2600# at Kazoo years ago it was hollowed out bolts, titanium,cheater (thickness) cages and lots of alum brackets.

60%...won't happen over here. Berlin has crept to 62%, most others are no LS. That's why they are Outlaws.
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#18 User is offline   outlaw latemodel Icon

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 10:59 AM

I guess some of us dont remember the 980 and 1070
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Posted 18 September 2010 - 11:31 AM

View Postrussrace, on 17 September 2010 - 03:18 PM, said:

Run what ya brung, and bring enough.




True but you know on the little tracks guys without enough routinely show up and put them in the show. Even on the big tracks there's guys with 23 degree motors running competitively.

The local tracks around here aren't UMP sanctioned but the motor, body and all the other stuff is the same, save tires, 700 miles away imagine that asphalt track guys.

Nobody protecting our guys from Bloomquist and Lucas Oil or Shayne Clanton and Kid Rocket and WoO from coming in and putting a whooping on our boys either. It's just something the dirt guys have to deal with. Shoot last summer Eckert and Richards showed for a 5000 to win show when WoO was off. (Neither of them won)
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#20 User is offline   Gunner Icon

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 08:35 PM

This thread combined witht he "who really matters" thread give a very good representation of what the problems are and why they are not likely to be resovled in the near future.

I would only suggest that the shared mentatlity that the other needs me to survive mentality of the racers and the owners/promoters is the cancer that is killing local short-track stockcar racing. I remember what Doc Hostetler told J.B. Books in The Shootist after he had given his prognosis of impending death, very painful death from cancer. Words to the effect of "if I were you and had lived my entire life the way you have, I don't think that the death I just described to you is not the one I would choose."

Sometimes I wonder if everyone might not be better off if the racers and owners/promoters had the courage of J.B. Books.
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