Michigan Short Track Racing Club: Proposal for OSLM and SLM racing - Michigan Short Track Racing Club

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Proposal for OSLM and SLM racing One possibility for growth

#1 User is offline   Gunner Icon

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 07:32 AM

As evidenced by the editorial and articles in the most recent Late Model Digest, there are two basic problems with SLM (includes OSLM) that can be attacked: 1) the shows are not entertaining enough to attract spectators (new or experienced) and, 2) many drivers are not learning to race.

A suggestion to correct both of those conditions is offered here with the understanding that none of the bull about faster cars/better drivers not being able to pass others without out wrecking/getting wrecked is allowed.

First, qualifying counts! It will pay and it will determine your starting position in heat(s) and feature.

Second, There will be inverts, up to a full invert. This is a good thing for the racer cuz everyone gets the same start pay and the way you earn more is by passing cars, so the further back you start, the more opportunity to earn money. $25 for each position improvement from your starting position. And in case someone wants to sandbag and start on the pole, they would get $5 a lap for leading, or $375 plus start money. But, if you qualify good and start something like 20th and work your way up to third you get 17 times the $25, or $425, plus the better qualifying money you would have earned (maybe even thru a fast dash that paid well).

The fans get a good show with lots of passing and the drivers get to learn to pass and be passed without wrecking.

Forget points, the guy who earns the most $ on the season wins the champtionship. Simple and direct.

The whole thing is an announcers dream too! Everything that happens on the track matters both for the night and the season.
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#2 User is offline   mod911 Icon

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 10:23 AM

That sounds ok but I would still take the front row and the win. No one asks "how many cars did ya pass". Did ya win,,,,no well lets get back. That's it. I started in the rear many times and got up front so I would take the money for sure. ALL the money from racin is long gone but I got the flag pictures still. They answer many questions with out being asked.

I would have liked a super but the money war level required to do well and travel and be competitive is crazy. I been a 1 or 2 man outfit and even the work level is enough to wear ur bones out before their time.

Sell lottery tickets to the fans and split the money between the winner and the lucky fan. Have a bingo section where mom and granny get free tickets with their gate ticket..

The SHOW is gone is the problem. Now its a controlled long drawn out kinda race. Every spin or near spin gets a yellow and a pic ur lane deal then 1 lap and do it again and again and again.

Killing supers is a kiss of death. Its like taking the lion out of the circus.....Fine for little tykes first visit but not for long......
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#3 User is offline   rjb Icon

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 09:14 AM

The SHOW is gone is the problem. Now its a controlled long drawn out kinda race. Every spin or near spin gets a yellow and a pic ur lane deal then 1 lap and do it again and again and again.

Killing supers is a kiss of death. Its like taking the lion out of the circus.....Fine for little tykes first visit but no


We went to Auburndale Speedway this past Saturday to watch the Tampa sprint cars. SHow started right on time. Heats done at 8. They rolled the sprint cars out for a meet and greet which was fine.

Then they pushed the sprint cars back into the pits. We had to sit through 4-5 features with feilds from 7-14 cars. Several oil downs, and interviewing the top 3, srpint feature rolled out at 930. A red flag for a major oil down, had the feature end at 1030! Looking at the crowd, mostly old timeers, some teenss with family and lots of kids..

This show should have beeen over easy at 915-930. Will not go back.

Thank you Spartan for running the sprint feature first or second. Gives people the choice, depending on what time it is, to stay or leave.

Looking at the show coming up at the old IRP track in Indy, looks like no supers and the mods are the headline. Wonder how that is going to work out?
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#4 User is offline   Rocky Icon

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 11:24 PM

The reason and ONLYreason Dirt tracks live is BECAUSE of Supers. Figure out what they are doing that will work for YOU and your drivers and survive or DON'T and die. Super Late Model NEEDS to become the headliner every week again. A long time ago this club tried to reinvent the SUPER. But IMO Kalamazoo got it right. take away some tire. I get people in Virginia telling me MAN I'd LOVE to see y'alls Super Late Models.... IN VIRGINIA... At a NASCAR sanctioned track where our limiteds would annihilate their Late Model Stock Cars or sorry YOUR limiteds would KILL our LMSC.It's been 13 years since I lived in Michigan. I do the dirt thing CAN the asphalt tracks run a purse structure like they do at say Tri City and Crystal for Outlaw Supers? And make it work? They could if they didn't force them to wreck a set of tires and burn 200 bucks worth of fuel before qualifying. Take all that practice away. THAT is where the dirt tracks have it right. Maybe make Supers run a little smaller slick too. Until the 100 lappers...
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#5 User is offline   Rocky Icon

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 11:38 PM

What the DIRT guys WON'T tell you IS that their field fillers are running stock block 406's and 383's. Because they can make the race. Limiteds of today are FASTER than the Supers I grew up on. It's whatever it's all on deaf ears. I've been TRYING FOR years and years to keep my 2 home tracks from miserable death but alas... a Super Late Model race has to be a cup sourced, unobtainium engine car. that's 100 laps long. It can't be a rock and roll Saturday Night 30 lapper. Ever. Sigh. I give up.

Sorry but you just shouldn't wait till total collapse to "fix things" Too late for asphgalt racing. Dirt racing is JUST about to die the same death....
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#6 User is offline   russrace Icon

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 08:02 AM

They have been trying to kill off asphalt Latemodels for years. I would argue the CRA/Pass rules package has added cars by the dozens from Florida to Michigan the last five years. Even at New Smyrna during Speedweeks that pays zilch the field has risen the last three years with the rules package. The big Template shows (Snowball, Rattler,Winchester 4OO, Rowdy @ Berlin, etc) all are getting good counts.

I do agree the feeder system is mucked up and wealthy parents have made 14-15 year old drivers the fastest growing commodity in LM touring shows. I think the problem is stepladder V8 steel body street stock classes are dying out. Todays Daddys don't know a balljoint from a driveshaft and junior runs a joy stick not a wrench. I see that model everywhere at the local level. Tracks are relying on basically stock rule FWD cars for their support classes and those drivers aren't migrating to latemodels.

The OLSM is a different story. We have high dollar slick tire programs but many elect to run the 970 rules which is fine. Latemodels that sat on jackstands for a few years are coming back to some tracks. A trend I don't like is the independent drivers of yesteryear who built their latemodels in the family garage/shop is becoming scare. Car owners are becoming more prevalent than driver/owners which drives up the cost in my opinion. As far as places to run a Outlaw at shows that pay decent it's larger than ever before in the Michiana region.
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#7 User is offline   Rocky Icon

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 11:22 AM

Racing is dead. Dick's been right all these years. The dirt tracks will be just as dead as the asphalt tracks are today in 5 years. And the asphalt tracks won't be open at all. There just aren't enough people that are independent and intelligent enough to run a race team race anymore. I hate to admit it but the most of the men of my generation are couch potato sissies. Including me, I don't race too much. I'd rather watch TV than pay my hard earned money watch 14 year old "superstars" burning their Daddy's hard earned money.
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#8 User is offline   Gunner Icon

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 12:19 PM

I tried to be pre-emptive by stating " that none of the bull about faster cars/better drivers not being able to pass others without out wrecking/getting wrecked is allowed." I failed to anticipate the bull about "its already dead, the funeral is planned, just send flowers."

IF it is true that "They have been trying to kill off asphalt Latemodels for years" then I would suggest again learning a lesson from the TUNDRA SLM series. Look into their conception, plan, and success. It is a good model that should interest owners and driver and anyone else who is not ready to give up the ghost on SLM/OSLM.

Any feedback on the propose race program would be appreciated, positive or negative.
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#9 User is offline   zerospeed Icon

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 11:15 AM

A cmon' I think 9000rpm engines and gumball tires with no tire rule is a great idea in a terrible economy! Hey, tire companies and engine builders know best...as long as the series' keep listening to them everything will be ok. Lower degree cylinder heads are great don't make a rule against it, wind those motors higher, and by all means DO NOT make a tire rule...if the cars go .15 slower the fans will just get up and leave, it's better to only have 8 cars than 25 cars going a tenth or so slower.
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#10 User is offline   racer6 Icon

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 07:54 PM

You need to come up with a way to have more money in the purse. Features are paying what they did 20 or so years ago, but the cost of owning and operating an OSLM have gone way up. If the payout would be increased to a point where you could at least pay for the cost of entry fee, tires, fuel and some travel money the car counts would come back. Also, some tracks who couldn't or didn't want to run the Outlaws on a weekly basis figured out they could run specials only and reap the benefits of having the class, but not having to run them in the weekly show. Eventually, all the local Outlaw guys that support the track, but don't want to travel drop out of racing.

It looks like the mods are suffering the same fate as the OSLM's. Car counts are down and costs are going sky high while pay outs stay low.

Want exciting racing...pay good money and you'll see some great racing!!!
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#11 User is offline   Mopar93 Icon

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 08:02 AM

Purses are lower now for the Supers, not the same as they were a number of years ago.

As recent as about 11-12 years ago, a nearby popular track had Supers on a regular basis and was paying $1200 to win and $400 to start.

But the crowds were bigger and there was a lot of activity in the pits. Many friends and family came with the teams, so the number of pit passes being purchased per car was much higher at that time than it is now.

There were local heroes and regular drivers with some good competition and the fans came and bought tickets to watch them race each week.

The same excitement isn't there any longer. How do you get that level of excitement back?

-Maurice
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#12 User is offline   Gunner Icon

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 07:46 PM

"How do you get that level of excitement back?"

I had hoped that my proposed format as posted at the top of this thread would accomplish that...
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#13 User is offline   Hauptmann6 Icon

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 11:33 AM

View Postrussrace, on 18 March 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

I think the problem is stepladder V8 steel body street stock classes are dying out. Todays Daddys don't know a balljoint from a driveshaft and junior runs a joy stick not a wrench. I see that model everywhere at the local level. Tracks are relying on basically stock rule FWD cars for their support classes and those drivers aren't migrating to latemodels.


The last GM RWD G-Body was produced in 1988; 26 years ago. That's akin to having the main field of cars made up of 57 Chevies in 1983. As much as I dislike FWD, that's what's out there to build cheap racecars with. At Kalamazoo the FWD class is built around late 90s early 2000s cars. They are old enough to be cheap and common for junkyard parts.

For the RWD classes the age of the cars are older than the drivers. Heck, they stopped making the G-body 6-7 years before I was able to drive and I'm in my mid 30s.
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#14 User is offline   slmmi Icon

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 07:45 AM

Seems like nobody wants to say it.....

What killed the supers is the limiteds.

Plain and simple. Look back at the 80's, I raced supers and we had 20-30 cars and raced for $1000 on a weekly basis. Then came the 90's...everyone wanted a more "affordable" class, so they made the limiteds. Well the field fillers in the supers all dropped down and to compete in the limiteds and the car counts dropped in the supers. Then it became apparent to the tracks that the limiteds looked pretty damn close to a super and they could get away with paying them half the purse.

So supers were dropped from the weekly show. Fast forward to 2014 and you have your top weekly show getting paid less than what it did 20-30yrs ago and the costs have sky rocketed. Use to be able to buy off the shelf parts and win. I can't even count how many races I won on dirt and asphalt with carrera 6's & 7's that cost $90/pc. Now both the limiteds and the supers are having their shocks custom built by the same shops. Hell even the mod's have their shocks custom valved for bumpstops.


Plain and simple, you have "X" amount of ppl that can afford to race and you have "X" amount of classes. When your supers were strong you had a lot less choices.

You want to bring it back eliminate the costs and add some more rules and structure, technology has improved in the last 30yrs that allows us to spend alot more on a race car then we ever could have dreamed of in the 80's. Not everyone can afford it and the ones that can't won't race because of it.

Merge the limiteds and the supers together and race them on a weekly basis. Let the pro stocks run the stock clip tube frames that use to be the original limiteds and pay them $500 to win. Like posted above, cut out hot laps and get down to racing.

Choke the big motors with a carb rule or restrictor plate and open the carbs up for the little motors. The only difference between a limited of today and a super is the engine and body width, lets even it out so they can play together and double the car counts while giving them a decent purse.
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#15 User is offline   fastforward Icon

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 08:44 AM

View Postslmmi, on 27 August 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

Seems like nobody wants to say it.....

What killed the supers is the limiteds.

Plain and simple. Look back at the 80's, I raced supers and we had 20-30 cars and raced for $1000 on a weekly basis. Then came the 90's...everyone wanted a more "affordable" class, so they made the limiteds. Well the field fillers in the supers all dropped down and to compete in the limiteds and the car counts dropped in the supers. Then it became apparent to the tracks that the limiteds looked pretty damn close to a super and they could get away with paying them half the purse.

So supers were dropped from the weekly show. Fast forward to 2014 and you have your top weekly show getting paid less than what it did 20-30yrs ago and the costs have sky rocketed. Use to be able to buy off the shelf parts and win. I can't even count how many races I won on dirt and asphalt with carrera 6's & 7's that cost $90/pc. Now both the limiteds and the supers are having their shocks custom built by the same shops. Hell even the mod's have their shocks custom valved for bumpstops.


Plain and simple, you have "X" amount of ppl that can afford to race and you have "X" amount of classes. When your supers were strong you had a lot less choices.

You want to bring it back eliminate the costs and add some more rules and structure, technology has improved in the last 30yrs that allows us to spend alot more on a race car then we ever could have dreamed of in the 80's. Not everyone can afford it and the ones that can't won't race because of it.

Merge the limiteds and the supers together and race them on a weekly basis. Let the pro stocks run the stock clip tube frames that use to be the original limiteds and pay them $500 to win. Like posted above, cut out hot laps and get down to racing.

Choke the big motors with a carb rule or restrictor plate and open the carbs up for the little motors. The only difference between a limited of today and a super is the engine and body width, lets even it out so they can play together and double the car counts while giving them a decent purse.

What track's are running "limiteds" in 2014?
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#16 User is offline   ccwise Icon

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 09:11 AM

View Postfastforward, on 27 August 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

What track's are running "limiteds" in 2014?



Auto City, Owosso, Whittemore and Dixie (although Dixie did not run this yr).

Other than that it seems like the template body crate motor package has pretty much taken over...I don't know why, the body costs something like $2or2500 now? I just put on a new outlaw body for less than $1000. I ran the template for a few when the tracks first said they going to switch (2005)... now I'm going to run an outlaw car with a crate motor and take the weight brake @ Auto City next yr.

The frame though is still the same as a super, my old ASA,CRA,JEGS car was an OSLM frame. I think some have a higher roll center now, not sure how much that would affect them going back outlaw.

Most tracks call us "Pro Late Models" now....but it's pretty much the same thing as a limited, maybe they switched the name because more and more ppl are running tube frame oslm frames and less stock clips
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Posted 27 August 2014 - 12:53 PM

View Postccwise, on 27 August 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

Auto City, Owosso, Whittemore and Dixie (although Dixie did not run this yr).

Other than that it seems like the template body crate motor package has pretty much taken over...I don't know why, the body costs something like $2or2500 now? I just put on a new outlaw body for less than $1000. I ran the template for a few when the tracks first said they going to switch (2005)... now I'm going to run an outlaw car with a crate motor and take the weight brake @ Auto City next yr.

The frame though is still the same as a super, my old ASA,CRA,JEGS car was an OSLM frame. I think some have a higher roll center now, not sure how much that would affect them going back outlaw.

Most tracks call us "Pro Late Models" now....but it's pretty much the same thing as a limited, maybe they switched the name because more and more ppl are running tube frame oslm frames and less stock clips

I understand what you're saying. The pro late model of today = the limited late model of yesterday.
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#18 User is offline   Hauptmann6 Icon

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 10:13 PM

View Postslmmi, on 27 August 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

I can't even count how many races I won on dirt and asphalt with carrera 6's & 7's that cost $90/pc. Now both the limiteds and the supers are having their shocks custom built by the same shops. Hell even the mod's have their shocks custom valved for bumpstops.


Would it be cheaper in the long run to run more expensive(up front) adjustable shocks that say have 5-6 settings than running the current setup? Seems like you would take a hit at the beginning but to make changes you just get to turn a dial. I know this has been done in sportscar racing for many years.
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Posted 28 August 2014 - 06:21 AM

Cost cutting affordable rules is the only thing that will get cars back in the pits. I don't care what class it is. Get rid of the high dollar stuff, and make it affordable to once race again.

You will find that the majority of the rules are made by each local track and made to fit only there track so you can't go anywhere else especially in the lower classes. It's good business on there part but not good for racing period. Racers are just as guilty when it comes to rules. Some how some way the rules have to be made for affordable racing.

Racers are always capable of finding a way to make it work, so go affordable and make them find it that way.

Just my opinion, thank you for your time.

Dave
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